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Author Topic: [AL] Trollslayers  (Read 2354 times)

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Offline empireaddict

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[AL] Trollslayers
« on: January 28, 2017, 08:46:03 AM »
Suggestion:
Trollslayers should be +1 when fighting Trolls. 

Justification:
Er, the clue is in the name.

I recall that, back in the day, this was a recurring irritation for the 'WM elder' known as Ulgityer.

And why can't Trollslayers brigade with other Trollslayers?  This wasn't in the original Warmaster book.  Is there some sort of WHFB fluff that required it to be added.  Or did someone on the playtest team decide that Dwarves were overpowered (?!) and needed to be brought down a peg?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 10:32:56 AM by empireaddict »
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Offline Lex

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 01:48:04 PM »
It became a common tactic to send out the RedHeadBrigade to get itself killed and kills as much opponent as possible. With the restriction to brigade Slayers at least the Dwarf has to make tactical choices to get all his TS committed

Offline cjbennett22

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 01:52:27 PM »
This was always a deep down erk of mine too, I stopped calling them trollslayers and just "slayers".  If they get a +1 to trolls then why not ogres?  Then it starts to roll so I real it back in by thinking about the rule for the ogres that they need to charge "Men" and so I try to label something and we are back to just "monsters".

Its a good thought and you are not alone  :)
maybe we CAN expand the +1 attack roll to include a hatred roll like in WHFB?  maybe +1d3 attacks per unit during combat of anything in a certain list per round?  Just spit balling and seeing if anything sticks.

I never go with them as it was always too easy to get them to charge into a trap like putting some flyers out in front or something.  I actually just played a game where I used trolls to screen them and the trolls really gave them a beating and then finished them up on the next turn.  :(

Offline empireaddict

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 03:21:35 PM »
"It became a common tactic to send out the RedHeadBrigade to get itself killed and kills as much opponent as possible"  Isn't that what Trollslayers are supposed to do? 

See also Flagellants, Witch Elves, Norse Beserkers, Cathay Dishonoured etc.  Why penalise Dwarves only?

And if the Dwarf player sends 4 Trollslayers off to die in that way he pushes himself a 4 towards a normally low break point.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 04:06:51 PM by empireaddict »
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
“Yes, but not enough to scare us wargamers.”
© Larry Leadhead (2004)

Offline greenskinchief

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 03:29:14 PM »
great idea but shouldn't trolls then become monsters?
extra charge bonus, ability to pursue cav, but no magic items

Offline cjbennett22

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 12:41:45 AM »
right, I don't condone making trolls "monsters" but maybe we can make a specific list of more units and instead of just a plus 1 per stand we can go with the +1d3 per round of combat against that expanded list?  If no one else likes it then I wouldn't mind.  Then would begin a list  :/

Offline Aquahog

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 01:06:18 AM »
I think this is overcomplicating the ruleset. +1 versus monsters is already a characterful rule that is simple to remember rather than a list of things.

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 07:02:32 AM »

See also Flagellants, Witch Elves, Norse Beserkers, Cathay Dishonoured etc.  Why penalise Dwarves only?


Slayers are still the toughest of them having 4hits, ability to take 2 per 1k points, +1A against monsters. And there is also the rule you must get rid of them if you don't want give your opponent free points. I see why the limitation was made.
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Offline empireaddict

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 10:18:07 AM »
@Aldhick, point taken.  But to return to the original proposal, should Trollslayers be +1 against Trolls?  (But without upgrading the Trolls themselves to monsters!)

Alternatively, and this might be a much simpler solution, just rename them as Slayers?!
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
“Yes, but not enough to scare us wargamers.”
© Larry Leadhead (2004)

Offline wmchaos2000

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 09:19:49 PM »
The issue is not the slayers, it is the trolls.
Make them:
- monsters (+1A when charging and can pursue Cav)
- deduct attacks to A:4
- keep the -1 in command.

This in combo will make them more interesting for both OnG and Chaos.
Have very rarely seen Trolls in any lists of those armies.

And the slayers finally become Trollslayers.  8)

Offline mlkr

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[AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 08:29:08 PM »
For OnG's the biggest problem with trolls are the -1 to command. I usually just nope out of it, but with crown of command it's doable.

Although I am tempted by the idea to make trolls monsters I think I like Empireaddicts simple namechange solution the best.


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Offline Ole

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 07:29:37 AM »
The issue is not the slayers, it is the trolls.
Make them:
- monsters (+1A when charging and can pursue Cav)
- deduct attacks to A:4
- keep the -1 in command.

This in combo will make them more interesting for both OnG and Chaos.
Have very rarely seen Trolls in any lists of those armies.

And the slayers finally become Trollslayers.  8)

If we reduce the attacks to 4. They will only get 5 attacks during charge. Not during enemy charge and not during advance. If we declare them monsters they can't enter some terrain.

Can't see why this is better?

The only benefit is they can't be defended and can pursue cavalry.

For OnG's the biggest problem with trolls are the -1 to command. I usually just nope out of it, but with crown of command it's doable.

Although I am tempted by the idea to make trolls monsters I think I like Empireaddicts simple namechange solution the best.

Trollslayer are called trollslayer because this was the lowest rank in Old World fluff a slayer would start. And they are not the worst unit in killing trolls. The point of slayers is get them killed I suppose.

And with the half move on failed command they stumble forward one turn after another until they reach initiative.
 

But our princess is in another castle!

Offline wmchaos2000

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 11:17:59 PM »
Sorry for the "off topic", but...

Don´t forget the positive synergy Trolls as monsters would gain/add to their respective armies.
Well outweighs their new combination of drawbacks.

In my opinion, the BIG "5-cent" here is:
Trolls would 'less rarely' get left behind when composing a new list.
=> more Trolls on the battlefields :D

With 'less rarely' meaning:
Probably mostly because the reasons you point out, less defensive capability means enemy may actually engage them instead of total avoidance.
Thereby, under the course of several games, they will be picked more often when making/moderating a list.
Compare this with todays version, where they only are a command-sink-hole or/and a static flank-wall.

Woods, support, supported: there are several other units in each army for these tasks.
During charge would still be 6 attacks, 4+charge+monster. (compare 5+charge)

Offline honestmistake

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 12:49:23 AM »
So to fix a problem with the name of a single unit the suggestion is that Trolls become wide based monsters? Seriously, does that honestly seem like the best solution to a niggle over names? I actually quite like the idea of making them monsters but a) I see no justification in dropping their attacks and b) I do worry that they are going to end up easily killed by terrain if this happens without a special rule allowing them to enter difficult terrain as if they were normal infantry (which would then need reflecting in their cost) Overall though it seems to be change for the sake of a name rather than any actual need 😒

Offline wmchaos2000

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Re: [AL] Trollslayers
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2017, 11:20:56 PM »
Just trying to help.
By giving an idea to work with.

Honestly, this idea actually solves the topic-issue and some others.
No special rules needed.
So, as an idea, it can´t be that far from the goal.

Back in 2001 when starting off with this wonderful game, my mate played Dwarfs and I played Chaos.
So the issue came up literally in the very first learn-to-play-WM game.
Our conclusion/question back then was "Why aren´t Trolls monsters?"  :o