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Author Topic: Work in progress  (Read 3920 times)

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Offline Aldhick

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Work in progress
« on: January 18, 2017, 11:34:30 AM »
Hey guys,
   just some information how things are going around WMR.
As you might have learned from warmaster podcast, on Barry's initiative the Rules Committee has been estabilished. We have tried to get the most active people from different communities involved. By now we have representatives of British, Swedish, German,  Spanish, USA and other communites on board. There's also Lex and Dave watching over. The main focus is on army lists amendments right now. Thanx to Simon we adopted the procedure of Epic Armageddon army list development. We have started to work on basic army lists and tournament lists from Trial army list compendium. So no Chaos Dwarfs, Wood Elves and Beastmen at the moment, but their time will soon come.

   Therefore I'd like to encourage you to put your ideas here on WMR sub-section so we can discuss them. Though as already stated, it's about issues, not wishlisting.

 Saying this, I have to postpone the WMR 1.0 release, as some changes in the army lists will affect the text inside the rulebook as well (steam tank rules for example). However as soon as there's enough time the v. 0.5 with all possible typos and language mistakes removed will be made public.

 Stay tuned.
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Offline Rowlybot

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2017, 09:25:35 AM »
You are my hero.

Offline greenskinchief

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 10:54:25 AM »
this might sound like heresy to any elf/dwarf players, but I think to balance the rules it would be an idea to remove any command 10 characters replacing them with command 9 instead this makes games much more balanced and isn't without precedent as Rick has already removed them when he wrote WMA.
( I am now diving for cover against the inevitable outrage ) ;-)

Offline mlkr

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Work in progress
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 12:37:12 PM »
this might sound like heresy to any elf/dwarf players, but I think to balance the rules it would be an idea to remove any command 10 characters replacing them with command 9 instead this makes games much more balanced and isn't without precedent as Rick has already removed them when he wrote WMA.
( I am now diving for cover against the inevitable outrage ) ;-)

Hmmm... username checks out ;)

Maining OnG's myself I can understand the frustration of Command 8 (at best!) when there are generals rockin' 10's out and about running circles around you. I am unsure of what further tweaking will be needed if we lower them to 9:ers though. Should they then cost a bit less? Will OnG's and their many spellcasters be a bit better off than they should? Internal and external balancingissues might arise.

Or it could work really well. Unsure.


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Offline Stormwind

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 11:13:11 PM »
In my experience, Crown of Command is so powerful that weaker command players can afford to buy it every time and compete easily with Dwarf, DE, HE players.
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Offline Hammerskelp

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 11:37:43 PM »
There is another way to look at the suggestion of moving command 10 to command 9.

What is it we want to achieve by the change?

If the objective is to get people playing more Warmaster then 'reducing' a perceived advantage of Tier 1 armies isn't going to endear players with those armies to the change.

Alternatively:
Improving Tier3 armies might be a better way to go. 
It looks liked WMR already gives a huge boost to the Orcs for example. (Half my troops wont end the game sitting in their deployment zone now!) 
That's a massive improvement.
How long will it take to fully appreciate the impact of the many (sometimes subtle) changes already on the books.
I'd be hesitant to change much more till we have shaken down the existing changes.

--Hammerskelp   

Offline Ole

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 05:34:03 AM »

How long will it take to fully appreciate the impact of the many (sometimes subtle) changes already on the books.
I'd be hesitant to change much more till we have shaken down the existing changes.

--Hammerskelp   
That depends on how aktive every one is. If you play frequent you are going to address inordinateness and report/discuss it here. But most of the changes have been used in various groups over the world for some time now.

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Offline empireaddict

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 03:51:24 PM »
@Aldhick, thanks for the update.  Speaking as a tournament organiser, v0.5 is more than good enough to keep us going!

@greenskinchief, as discussed before offline, I don't see a problem with Cmd 10 generals.  Perhaps some, like DEs should pay more points and/or be banned from using the sceptre, but it fits with the fantasy fluff.  Whereas WMA, as I understand the Priestley doctrine, was always meant to be more towards the 'simulation' rather than 'game' end of the rules spectrum.

@Hammerskelp, concur with your main point. WMR has shifted the paradigm and we need to let it bed in.  I suspect that the traditional HE/DE strategy of Cmd 10 + Heavy Cavalry thrust rolling up large chunks of an enemy will now run up against a much more attritional game system.  Suck them in, hold your nerve, and swamp them with reinforcements after weathering the 2 rounds of combat.
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
“Yes, but not enough to scare us wargamers.”
© Larry Leadhead (2004)

Offline Barry Pittman

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 09:59:59 AM »
this might sound like heresy to any elf/dwarf players, but I think to balance the rules it would be an idea to remove any command 10 characters replacing them with command 9 instead this makes games much more balanced and isn't without precedent as Rick has already removed them when he wrote WMA.
( I am now diving for cover against the inevitable outrage ) ;-)
I agree with you 100%. All Generals should be Leadership 9, even Orcs. You could even make them free and therefore allow more points to spend on other stuff.

I suggested the same thing on the Rules Committee forum a few days ago. I think the Elf / Dwarf players may not like the idea too much though  ;)

Offline Hammerskelp

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 11:04:29 AM »
I think the differentiation given to Dwarf/Elf CMD 10 armies is worth keeping.
Smaller disciplined forces compared with (my) lumbering Orcs.

If you think tweaking is needed, I'd be happier seeing something that reinforced the colour and flavour. That's a big part of what makes Warmaster the fun that it is.   Don't make everyone CMD9.  Make a change that reinforces the narrative.  eg: Brigade containing at least Two Orc Warrior units that fails a CMD roll by 1 may move directly towards nearest enemy? I'm not suggesting that as a rule..... just an example off the top off my head instead of just boosting he CMD of tier 3 armies.
........Or just make CMD 10 cost more.
- - - - -
Our first game of Warmaster Revolution is tonight.  The idea of most Orc units moving at least half pace still seems too good to be true. Looking forward to it! :) 
My goblin shaman might die of shock when something he orders actually moves!
- - - - -
I've dabbled in the more traditional ancients competition scene (FieldOfGlory..). In that environment, army list 'balance' is essential.   I concur with the previous comments about ancients needing more 'fairness' to help simulation. 

Hmm...It's easy to see how an increased focus on competitive play would make things like Gerroff and Waaagh unattractive.  No serious competitive player wants to face (or use) such random (but fluffy) elements of rules. 
My 2c.

Offline greenskinchief

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 12:34:37 PM »

I agree with you 100%. All Generals should be Leadership 9, even Orcs. You could even make them free and therefore allow more points to spend on other stuff.

I suggested the same thing on the Rules Committee forum a few days ago. I think the Elf / Dwarf players may not like the idea too much though  ;)

the idea of Free Generals works fine in BOFA

Offline empireaddict

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 10:44:48 PM »
I don't think the core of this problem is Cmd 10 on its own.  Dwarves have Cmd 10 and they sometimes struggle.  The balance problem lies in HE and DE with Cmd 10.  WMR might now rein them in a bit, but the problem for their opponents is still Cmd 10 + (1) lots of Heavy Cavalry + (2) uber-shooting + (3) medium-range artillery (with uber-shooting in HE vanilla list).  The HE tournament list goes some way to restricting (2) but I would like to see Silver Helms restricted to -/3 min/max or even for both Silver Helms and Cold Ones to be -/2.  Other armies, with the exception of Bretonnians, probably ought to be restricted similarly.  In summary, don't do brain surgery when you only need to amputate part of a limb.
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Offline jchaos79

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2017, 06:08:45 AM »
Restricting they heavy cavalry (knights) is something that I really consider as a good change for the game.

Offline Aquahog

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2017, 12:01:33 PM »
I agree that cavalry should be restricted, especially for the Elves. However, to prevent HE simply picking Chariots instead I think they should have a combined maximum.

Offline empireaddict

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Re: Work in progress
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2017, 01:11:59 PM »
@Aquahog, I don't think HE Chariots are a problem that needs to be addressed.  Only 5+ armour and under WMR the lack of charge bonuses for advance moves will restrict their 'thud' factor compared to Silver Helms (or Cold Ones).
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
“Yes, but not enough to scare us wargamers.”
© Larry Leadhead (2004)