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Offline empireaddict

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[WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« on: October 29, 2016, 02:13:00 PM »
Two reasons for starting this topic:

1.  The Ogres Kickstarter has less than 48 hours to run and so, by starting a conversation, I will draw attention to it just ahead of the deadline http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=8480.0

2.  Barry (of that Kickstarter!) and I have been trading emails about potential tweaks to the Ogre Kingdoms list for future Saffron Walden/Colchester tournaments.  We have some ideas, but I thought it would be helpful to get some opinions from round the world.

My general sense is that there is not much wrong with the troop types and/or what they do.  But the points costs mean that some types just don't get used because they are not seen by players as value-for-points.  I base this mainly on my (or my son's) experience of roughly 40 games with or against Ogres (using this army http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4942.0 which is now living in Chelmsford!)

Also, in terms of underlying philosophy, I think that any errata should be minimal.  The impulse to over-engineer existing solutions must be resisted!

So here are my (hopefully) simple suggestions:

Ogre Kingdoms errata: Bull Ogres, 105 | Ironguts, must charge humans | Leadbelchers, 5+, 125 | Yhetees, 110 | Gnoblars, 25 | Rhinox, 200 | Gorgers, 125, must charge humans | Toothcracker, Bone Cruncher, Troll Guts, 30cm |

« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 02:14:50 PM by empireaddict »
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
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Offline Dark Omen

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 04:42:24 PM »
OK, here are my thoughts;

I am a firm believer of less is more when it comes to special rules. If in doubt, throw it out!

I would propose the following changes;

1) Ogre warriors (bulls). Reduce cost to 105 pts in line with EVERY OTHER ARMY that has them!

2) Leadbelchers. Increase range to 30 cm. Decrease Shots to 1 per stand (which also removes the shoot yourself rule). Keep the -1 save rule. By my calculation they should stay the same price.

3) Ironguts. Give them the same "must charge men" rule as Ogre bulls to justify their cheap cost.

4) Yhetees. Remove all special rules. Points reduced to 110.

5) Gnoblars - remove the "can only brigade with other Gnoblars" rule. Give them instead the "Insignificant" rule. "Insignificant" units do not count towards your breakpoint, but cannot support other units in combat apart from other Insignificant units. Stay at 30 pts.

6) Rhinox Riders. Remove all special rules apart from the extra +1 charge in the open. Reduce cost to 220.

7) Gorgers. Remove all special rules. Price drop to 125.

8.) Giant. No change.

9) Tyrant. No change.

10) Bruiser. No change.

11) Butcher. Increase spell ranges from 20 to 30 cm.

12) Bull Rhinox (or Mammoth mount) No change.

13) I would suggest adding a scrap launcher artillery piece which works just like a Goblin Doom Diver from the Goblin list for 80 pts. Potentially change its move to 20 cm and range to 40 cm to better represent it?


Why these changes?

The points imbalance for Bulls and Ironguts was obvious. Only Ogre armies paid more for their Ogres!
Ironguts were Chaos warriors for 5 pts cheaper - so just give them the same Ogre charge rule to justify this.

Leadbelchers needed an overhaul, their rules were complex, random and messy. Simply make them operate like handgunners, job done. They lose an attack and an armour save compared to Bulls to justify their ranged attack.

Yhetees were too hard to order before - especially in terrain which they are supposed to be good at traversing.

Gnoblars were useless because they had to lurk in brigades of their own. With the proposed change they can be used as a missile screen or meat shield to protect the bulls, as per the lore.

Rhinox Riders and Gorgers were overly complicated for no reason. Just make them smashy but cheaper.

Butchers suffered with their short range spells so why not increase their range to that of every other caster?

Adding a scrap launcher provides some variety to the list and much needed ranged attacks.




« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 04:46:13 PM by Dark Omen »

Offline Ole

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 05:56:20 PM »
Two reasons for starting this topic:

1.  The Ogres Kickstarter has less than 48 hours to run and so, by starting a conversation, I will draw attention to it just ahead of the deadline http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=8480.0

2.  Barry (of that Kickstarter!) and I have been trading emails about potential tweaks to the Ogre Kingdoms list for future Saffron Walden/Colchester tournaments.  We have some ideas, but I thought it would be helpful to get some opinions from round the world.

My general sense is that there is not much wrong with the troop types and/or what they do.  But the points costs mean that some types just don't get used because they are not seen by players as value-for-points.  I base this mainly on my (or my son's) experience of roughly 40 games with or against Ogres (using this army http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4942.0 which is now living in Chelmsford!)

Also, in terms of underlying philosophy, I think that any errata should be minimal.  The impulse to over-engineer existing solutions must be resisted!

So here are my (hopefully) simple suggestions:

Ogre Kingdoms errata: Bull Ogres, 105 | Ironguts, must charge humans | Leadbelchers, 5+, 125 | Yhetees, 110 | Gnoblars, 25 | Rhinox, 200 | Gorgers, 125, must charge humans | Toothcracker, Bone Cruncher, Troll Guts, 30cm |

I don't have yet any experience with the ogre list. But since I'm a "King of the north" myself, I'm watching this space.

Your hopefully simple suggestions looks alright to me, specially the spells and the yhetees (trolls). Bel always says that the 5 points more for the bull ogres are because of the quantity of the units. But You have the games under your belt.

Is the army still playable when the hole army has to charge? Probably not because most of the time you want to charge anyway.

How was playtesting being handled in the past? Was there some kind of global consensus?

@Dark Omen if you would reduce the breakpoint for the gnobblers there is even less use of them. Since they only existence is maximizing the breakpoint.

Cheers

Ole

But our princess is in another castle!

Offline ruiza97

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2016, 11:19:35 PM »
Quote
@Dark Omen if you would reduce the breakpoint for the gnobblers there is even less use of them. Since they only existence is maximizing the breakpoint.

Cheers

Ole

A bretonnian army can have a breakpoint of 1, if so built. 

Offline ruiza97

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2016, 06:30:29 AM »
Ultimately, i plan to build a 2000 pt Ogre Kingdoms army using this errata: Bull Ogres, still 110 due to Bel's thoughts on the price of units with no minimum | Ironguts, must charge humans | Leadbelchers, 5+, 125 | Toothcracker, Bone Cruncher, Troll Guts, 30cm | Gnoblars - remove the "can only brigade with other Gnoblars" rule. Give them instead the "Insignificant" rule. "Insignificant" units do not count towards your breakpoint, but cannot support other units in combat apart from other Insignificant units. Stay at 30 pts.
----------------------------------------------------------------
 550 -  5 Bull Ogres
 500 -  4 Leadbelchers
 435 -  3 Ironguts
 120 - 4 Gnoblars
 125 -  1 Tyrant
   90 -  1 Bruiser
         -  1 Sword of Destruction (10)
 180 -  2 Butcher
----------------------------------------------------------------
2000 - 12/6

Please note that the break point of the army would have been 8 instead of 6, if the Gnoblers counted against the break point.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 06:36:58 AM by ruiza97 »

Offline Bel

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2016, 11:39:29 AM »
Thank you guys. Now I think it needs to be recomposed too (due my own ogre experience of battling and your requests).

Okay then. Let's discuss.

First of all - please bear in mind that some changes suggested earlier may cause the army to loose its unique shape and to become a common boring infantry army.

1. I would agree for 105 pts Bulls and 'Always Charge Humans, Never charge Halflings' by initiative rule for all Ogre units except Gorgers (they MUST charge everything), Yetees, Gnoblars, Scrap Launcher and Giant.
Min/max 2/4 per 1000 (?).

2. Leadbelchers - discussable. I think we have 3 ways if you still need the changes (though I prefer to keep it as it is):
a) AS5, 1 shooting attack with -1AS and the range up to 30cm (for the cost of 115-125pts)
b) AS5, 1 shooting attack in 30cm range with no AS instead of -1AS. S&S may be grapeshot only and -1AS. Misfire rule still applies (any '1's hit the unit itself, may cause confusion but don't drive back). Obviously the cost has to be increased.

3. Yetees - I would keep the same cost or add +10-15pts more and return in place the definition lost in 2008 discussion - When receiving orders (with -1 command penalty) Yetee units ignore all penalties for distance AND for being in the dense terrain. Obviously they should be -/1 per 1000.

4. Gnoblars - replace the 'brigade' restriction with 'support' restriction - Unit is allowed to shoot as if it had bows but its range is reduced to 15cm. Also, Gnoblars can only support other Gnoblars but may be supported as usual. Characters cannot join Gnoblar units. - In this case their cost may be decreased to 25pts but they still count for BP.
If you still think the Gnoblars should not count for BP then there is another way to keep the spirit of the army -  to obligate for getting 1 Gnoblar unit for every unit of Ogres and it would be correct from army composing point of view but I don't like such FB style restrictions. Nevertheless - why not?

5. Riders and Gorgers - frankly speaking I can't understand why you want to make them a common cavalry/infantry. Probably the Riders are a bit overpriced (10-20pts) but they worth it.

6. Scrap Launcher (and similar galloper artillery)  - move 20cm, 1/3 Attacks, 3 Hits, 0 AS, shooting range 40cm AS as usual, cause confusion on 4+ instead of 6+, may not S&S, unit size 1, 85pts, 0/1 per 1000 - right?

7. Bruisers - ok for 30cm spell range where possible. But ogre spells become a bit stronger and need a compensation or adjusting.

Please think, calculate and discuss.

Offline Dark Omen

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 07:59:55 PM »

Please remove image if it breaches copyright.

Very pleased to see the discussion around this topic, in light of this I have tinkered with the army selector on MS Paint and annotated the unit entries to come in line with some of the proposals discussed.

Special Rules:

1) Ogre Bulls and Ironguts must use Initiative to charge enemy units of Humans wherever possible.

2) Missile attacks from Leadbelchers are 30 cm and impose a -1 save modifier on the enemy.

3) There is a -1 command penalty when giving an order to a unit of Yhetees or a brigade that includes Yhetees. However, you may ignore additional command penalties due to distance or terrain when giving an order to a unit of Yhetees.

4) Gnoblars have a 15 cm shooting attack. They may shoot from any edge of their stand. Gnoblar stands may not support other Infantry stands apart from other units of Gnoblars. Characters cannot join Gnoblar units.

5) Rhinox Riders gain an additional +1 attack when charging enemy in the open. Rhinox Riders are immune to Terror. Rhinox Riders cannot be driven back by shooting, and cannot be routed by shooting, but may still be confused if a drive back roll is a 6. Rhinox Riders must use Initiative to charge wherever possible, and can never use initiative to evade. Rhinox Riders must pursue and advance in combat wherever possible. Rhinox Riders never make way.

6) Gorgers are Monsters but based along the long edge like Infantry stands. Gorgers are unaffected by Terror. Gorgers must use Initiative to charge wherever possible and cannot use Initiative to Evade. Gorgers must pursue in combat where possible but may not Advance.

7) See generic Giant special rules.

8.) Scraplaunchers are Artillery but have a movement value of 20cm as they are mounted on chariots. Scraplaunchers have a Range of 40 cm and cannot stand and shoot. Enemy count their full armour save against Scraplaunchers, but any drive back roll of 4+ will confuse enemy units.

9) A Bruiser or Tyrant may ride a Bull Rhinox or similar large beast. Such a mount adds +2 to the character's attacks, and any unit joined by the Rhinox mounted character will cause Terror.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 10:06:19 AM by Dark Omen »

Offline Bel

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 05:00:28 AM »

3) There is a -1 command penalty when giving an order to a unit of Yhetees or a brigade that includes Yhetees. However, you may ignore further command penalties due to distance or terrain when giving an order to a unit of Yhetees.


1. I am not a native speaker and may mistake but for international community it has to be replaced with 'additional'.
2. Point values of units are too low. There are some arguments pro and contra and it has to be discussed.

Offline Dark Omen

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 09:44:53 AM »
Quote
Can you please indicate which units you believe to be undercosted and why? It helps me to understand what value is placed on each ability.

Thank you

Iain

Iain,
in Warmaster there is NO exact value placed on stats or abilities. Pricing is rather a composite of availability in the Army-selector, stats, abilities and comparative-cost-vs-breakpoints.

Dropping the cost of certain units "because similar units in a different army are cheaper" usually means that you are ignoring the Availabilty or comparative cost restrictor.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 02:13:38 PM by Lex »

Offline empireaddict

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 08:04:33 PM »
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for comments and ideas thus far.  And if anyone else wants to contribute, please jump in!
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
“Yes, but not enough to scare us wargamers.”
© Larry Leadhead (2004)

Offline Lex

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Re: [WM] Ogre Kingdoms errata?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 11:51:54 AM »
Quote
Can you please indicate which units you believe to be undercosted and why? It helps me to understand what value is placed on each ability.

Thank you

Iain

Iain,
in Warmaster there is NO exact value placed on stats or abilities. Pricing is rather a composite of availability in the Army-selector, stats, abilities and comparative-cost-vs-breakpoints.

Dropping the cost of certain units "because similar units in a different army are cheaper" usually means that you are ignoring the Availabilty or comparative cost restrictor.

OOPS... I accidentaly edited the post instead of reacting on it ???    my excuses