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Offline ErikModi

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Campaign Rules Addon
« on: April 21, 2016, 03:23:35 PM »
So, looking at additional material released for BFG (notably Armada and the combined FAQ), I felt the Blue Book campaign rules were a little lacking.  So I made some revisions, pillaging from a few other campaign rules sets I've found.  Take a gander:

Resources

Each planet controlled by a player produces resources for that player during the Spoils of War phase (Battlefleet Gothic rulebook, p 152).  Resources accumulate and add to the available points for that player’s fleet, and may be spent to add or upgrade ships using the appropriate Fleet list.  A planet generates resources equal to ten times the number of Repair Points it generates.

Resources are also gained after battles.  Instead of increasing Renown, add the awarded Victory Points divided by 100 to your Resources, but only if you controlled the field (this is a “bounty” of sorts rewarded for bringing back useful materiel and information, not a straight conversion of destroyed enemy resources to your usable resources).

Resources may not be spent on the following (as they are rewards earned through the normal campaign system):

Fleet Commander Rerolls
Secondary Commanders (Space Marine Captains/Chaos Lords)
Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines
Chaos Marks
Daemonships

Other Uses of Resources

When rolling to see what type of refit a ship will get, spend resources equal to 5% of the ship’s point value (round up) to roll two dice and pick one.  Resources must be spent before the roll is made.  Example:  A Murder-class cruiser had earned a refit from an Appeal.  The player spends 9 resources and rolls 2d6, getting a 2 and a 4.  The player selects the Ship Refit, ignoring the Engine Refit.

When rolling on a refit table, spend resources equal to 10% the ship’s point value to roll twice, picking one result.  Resources must be spent before the roll is made.  Example:  For the above Murder cruiser, spend 17 resources to roll 2d6, getting a 1 and a 2.  The player picks the Additional Shield Generator, ignoring the Improved Sensor Array result.

Spend resources equal to 20% of a ship’s point cost to forego all rolling, and select one refit the ship is eligible for from the list.  Example:  Instead of rolling for the above Murder cruiser, spend 34 resources to select the Targeting Matrix refit.

Spend 25 resources to reroll a ship’s Leadership test for gaining crew experience.  The reroll stands.

Spend 50 resources to add +1 to a roll for an Appeal.  These resources can be spent up to twice, and must be spent before the roll is made.  Example:  When making an Appeal for Forces of Chaos assistance, a player could spend 50 resources to add one to their roll, earning the bonus on roll of 4 or higher.  If they spent 100 resources, they could earn the bonus on a roll of 3 or higher.

Spend 100 resources to reroll a result on an “Other” Appeals table.  You must accept the result of the reroll.

Recommissioning Enemy Vessels

Specifically, Imperials and Chaos can easily use each other’s ships (Eldar would likely have no use for an inferior human vessel, and da Orkz is prolly choppin’ dem ta spare partz.)  Keep track of captured hulks after battles.  Once three of a specific class of ship have been captured, you may pay Resources to add that class of ship to your fleet roster, cannibalizing spare parts from like ships (and probably dissimilar ships where the difference doesn’t matter) to rebuild a functional model.

Modified Appeals Tables

The following are modifications to the appeals tables:

Space Marines Table
2d6   Troops
2   The Chapter reassigns a Battle Barge to your fleet.  You may allocate resources to add a Space Marine Battle Barge to your Fleet Registry.
3   The Chapter reassigns a Strike Cruiser to your fleet.  You may allocate resources to add a Space Marine Strike Cruiser to your Fleet Registry.
4   The Chapter sends a Space Marine Captain to oversee one of your ships.  The selected ship adds +2 to its Leadership (to a maximum of ten).
5   The Chapter sends a company of Space Marines, which are assigned to one ship of your choice.  The selected ship gains +2 to Boarding Actions, and +1 to Hit-and-Run attacks.
6   The Chapter retrofits one of your ships with drop pods.  A ship so refitted applies +2 planetary assault points, instead of +1.
7   The Chapter supplies you with Thunderhawk Gunships.  One ship may replace its fighters and assault boats with Thunderhawk Gunships (Armada, p 21).
8   The Chapter supplies you with boarding torpedoes.  One ship may carry boarding torpedoes in addition to regular torpedoes.
9   The Chapter sends a squad of Space Marine Terminators.  One ship gains a Terminator Boarding Party (FAQ, page 54).
10   The Chapter sends Space Marine Sergeants to drill your crews in boarding actions.  One ship of your choice may reroll the dice in boarding actions for the remainder of the campaign.
11   The Chapter conducts raids on your opponents’ supply lines.  Reduce one opponent’s resources by d6x10 and add the same amount to your resource total.
12   The Chapter conducts raids on your opponent’s planetary defenses.  In the next game in which your opponent has planetary defenses, their value is reduced by d6x30 points.

Forces of Chaos Table
2d6   Result
2   The forces of Chaos seize one of your ships for themselves.  One of your ships becomes a Daemonship, losing any other upgrades it had.  It may be fielded in battle, following the normal rules for Daemonships.  The Flagship and any ship with a Chaos Lord cannot become a Daemonship.
3   The Chaos Gods show you a glimpse of the future.  You may re-roll the dice when deciding who has initiative in the next campaign turn.  The re-roll stands.
4   The Chaos gods send a force of Daemonic entities that swirl about one of your ships and attack nearby vessels. Nominate one capital ship in the next battle. A single enemy ship
within 15cm during your end phase is attacked. Roll a D6: this is the number of dice you can roll to hit against the target’s Armour (shields have no effect).
5   A mighty Champion of the Dark Gods agrees to join your retinue of followers. You may add a Chaos Lord (with a Mark of Chaos if you wish) to your Fleet Registry.  Reroll this result if you already have three Chaos Lords in your fleet.
6   A Chaos Space Marine battle force will act as your personal bodyguard.  Your Flagship is treated as having a Chaos Space Marine crew (Armada, p 45).  Terminators may be purchased with Resources (immediately or in the future).  Reroll this result if your flagship already has a Chaos Space Marine Crew.
7   A force of Chaos Space Marines rally to your cause.  Any one ship in your fleet may be upgraded to a Chaos Space Marine crew (Armada, p 45).  Terminators may be purchased with Resources (immediately or in the future).  Reroll this result if all ships in the fleet already have Chaos Space Marines.
8   The Chaos Forces bless one of your ships.  A ship with a Chaos Lord or Chaos Space Marine crew receives one Mark of Chaos, if it does not already have one.
9   Piratical renegades flock to your cause. One ship in your fleet may be equipped with boarding torpedoes and/or Dreadclaw assault boats.
10   The Chaos Gods smile upon your fleet.  One ship with a Mark of Chaos may be given another Mark.
11   The Chaos gods use their foul magicks to create a ward of Chaos about your fleet. Nominate one of your capital ships in the next game. Any enemy shooting at this ship suffers
a right column shift on the Gunnery table (before any other shifts for range or Blast markers).
12   The Chaos gods use their fiendish powers to create a swirling vortex of Chaos about one of your ships. Nominate one capital ship in your fleet. In the next battle, any enemy ship within 15cm of this vessel counts as having one Blast marker in contact with its base.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:54:17 AM by ErikModi »

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2016, 03:44:25 PM »
So, in playing Battlefleet Gothic: Armada, I liked some of the additional world types they had there, and the bonuses you got for controlling them (or rather, the penalties you got if you didn't control them).  Some searching on the WH40K wiki yielded some interesting results, and I came up with additional planet types, and bonuses planet types that can be added to them.  Warning, gratuitous rolling ensues.

Method One:  By the Book

Roll 2d6 for the system based on the number of Warp Channels it has:

1 Channel
2 – Uninhabited
3-4 – Feral
5-6 – Feudal
7 – Knight
8-9 – Penal
10-11 – Agri-World
12 -- Mining

2 Channels
2-3 – Feral
4-5 – Feudal
6 – Knight
7-8 – Industrial
9-10 – Mining
11-12 – Agri-World

3 Channels
2-3 – Agri-World
4-5 – Mining
6-7 – Industrial
8-9 – Civilized
10-11 – Hive
12 -- Forge

4 Channels
2-3 – Mining
4-5 – Industrial
6-8 – Civilized
9-11 – Hive
12 – Forge

5+ Channels
2-4 – Civilized
5-6 – Knight
8-10 – Hive
11-12 – Forge

Method 2:  Completely Random
Roll 2d6 for each system.  If you want, you can add the number of Warp Channels above 1 to the roll, or not.
2   Uninhabited
3   Feral
4   Feudal
5   Penal
6   Agri-World
7   Mining
8   Industrial
9   Civilized
10   Knight
11   Hive
12    Forge

Then, roll to see if the planet has a bonus type in addition to its regular type.  A roll of "None" means exactly that, no additional type.  A result of 1 means roll once on the planet type's bonus table.  A roll of 2 means roll twice on that table.  A planet can't have the same bonus type more than once, to reroll duplicate results.  Some other bonus types may have additional special rules.

Uninhabited
1-5 – None
6 – 1

Feral
1-5 – None
6 -- 1

Feudal
1-5 – None
6 – 1

Penal
1-5 – None
6 – 1

Agri-World
1-4 – None
5-6 – 1

Mining World
1-5 – None
6 – 1

Industrial World
1-5 – None
6 – 1

Civilized World
1-3 – None
4-5 – 1
6 – 2

Knight World
1-3 – None
4-6 – 1

Hive World
1-2 – None
3-5 – 1
6 – 2

Forge World
1-2 – None
3-4 – 1
5-6 -- 2

Now, the bonus planet types table.

Agri-World
1-3 – None
4-5 – Pleasure World
6 – Shrine World

Mining World
1-3 – None
4 – Research Station
5 – Fortress World
6 – Shrine World

Civilized World
1-2 – None
3-4 – Pleasure World
5-6 – Shrine World

Hive World
1-2 – Fortress World
3-4 – Research Station
5-6 – Shrine World

Forge World
1-2 – Research Station
3-4 – Fortress World
6 – Shrine World

Feral World
1-5 – None
6 – Research Station

Feudal World
1-5 – None
6 – Research Station

Penal World
1-4 – None
5-6 – Research Station

Uninhabited World
1-5 – None
6 – Research Station

Industrial World
1-3 – None
4-5 – Research Station
6 – Shrine World

Knight World
1-4 – None
5 – Research Station
6 – Shrine World

For each Shrine World, roll a second d6.  On a five or six, that world is a Cardinal World in addition to its other types.
A given subsector may only have one Fortress World.  Discard any further Fortress World results (treat the result as "none.")

Yes, this means not every planet that gets to roll on it's table will get a bonus type.  Bonus types should be fairly rare, two or three per subsector (in a good subsector).  And note, I'm not very up on 40K lore, so if I've made some mistakes, be gentle.

So, what do these planets do?  Well, I made a nifty table in Microsoft Word detailing all that, each planet's repair points at various Renown levels and what it rolls for number of defenses.  It's awesome.  But forums don't handle tables well, so I'll transliterate the data below for the new planet types:

Main Types

Feral
Defenses:  d3-1
Repair Points by Renown
1-2:  1
6-10:  1
11-20:  1
21-30:  1
31-50:  1
51+:  1

Feudal
Defenses:  d3
Repair Points by Renown
1-2:  2
6-10:  2
11-20:  2
21-30:  3
31-50:  3
51+:  3

Industrial
Defenses:  d6-1
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  2
6-10:  2
11-20:  3
21-30:  3
31-50:  4
51+:  4

Knight
Defenses:  d6
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  d6-1
6-10:  d6-1
11-20:  d6
21-30:  d6
31-50:  d6+1
51+  d6+1

Bonus Types
Adeptus Astartes Homeworld
Defenses:  +d6+3
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  +2
6-10:  +2
11-20:  +3
21-30:  +3
31-50:  +4
51+:  +4

Cardinal World
Defenses:  +d6
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  +1
6-10:  +2
11-20:  +3
21-30:  +4
31-50:  +5
51+:  +6

Daemon World
Defenses:  +d6+3
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  +2
6-10:  +4
11-20:  +6
21-30:  +8
31-50:  +10
51+:  +12

Fortress World
Defenses:  +d6+2
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  +2
6-10:  +2
11-20:  +3
21-30:  +3
31-50:  +4
51+:  +4

Pleasure World
Defenses:  +d3-1
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  -2
6-10:  -2
11-20:  -1
21-30:  -1
31-50:  -0
51+:  -0

Research Station
Defenses:  +d6-2
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  +1
6-10:  +1
11-20:  +2
21-30:  +2
31-50:  +3
51+:  +3

Shrine World
Defenses:  +d6-1
Repair Points by Renown
1-5:  +1
6-10:  +1
11-20:  +1
21-30:  +1
31-50:  +1
51+:  +1

Bonus Planet Types Special Rules

Adeptus Astartes Homeworld:  An Imperial player may name one, and only one, Feral or Feudal World in the sector to be an Adeptus Astartes Homeworld.  It may not be a planet they begin with control over.  An Adeptus Astartes Homeworld provides an Imperial player with a +1 bonus when rolling for Other Appeals each Campaign turn.

Cardinal World:  Only those Shrine Worlds most holy and dedicated to worship of the God Emperor are designated Cardinal Worlds.  Each Cardinal World a player possesses allows them to roll a D6 in the Aftermath of a Campaign turn.  On a roll of 6, one Neutral World shifts to the player’s control.

Daemon World:  Claimed by the ravages of the Warp, Daemon worlds are hellish places to human life, but ideal for the daemons and other forces of Chaos.  They cannot be rolled normally, but a planet that is target of a successful Exterminatus! scenario by a Chaos player may be declared a Daemon world.  A Daemon world provides a +1 bonus when rolling for Other Appeals in each Campaign turn.  No more than one planet in a given sector may be a Daemon World.

Fortress World:  Heavily fortified against enemy incursions, Fortress Worlds are designed to hold any enemy at bay indefinitely.  Any forces defending a Fortress World gain a +1 bonus to their Leadership.

Pleasure World:  Pleasure Worlds are made for rest, relaxation, and recuperation.  For each Pleasure World a player controls, their ships may roll a D6 when crippled.  On a 4+, they do not lose one Leadership.

Research Station:  Research Stations provide valuable information, technology, and resources.  For each Research Station a player controls, they may reroll any roll for Refitting their ships.

Shrine World:  Dedicated to the veneration of the God Emperor (or the Chaos Gods), Shrine Worlds are places of holy contemplation and meditation, and pilgrims come from far and wide to visit its monuments and worship in its temples.  Each Shrine World adds ten bonus Resources.

Whew!  Okay, that was some work.  Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:41:55 AM by ErikModi »

Offline Lotus

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2016, 12:57:01 PM »
I personaly like the "repair points" solution in the rulebook. Because it is simple. BFG ist not a widespread game; however, you can use templates to build some proxy-ships and gather people with tabletop-expirience but no BFG-experience together for a campain. They will have to learn the rules, so i wouldn't make the campaign rules more complicaded.

What i like: Recommissioning Enemy Vessels. I am thinking about something similar to this, but avaiable to more factions or some additions for the factions who can't use this rule to compensate for that. The idea is just awesome and reminds me of "master of orion II", where you can capture enemy ships to use them later or to scrap them for money and some ship-technology.

On the additional planets: Why not!

Stuff you could think about (or: stuff i am thinking about when it comes to campaign games):

1. missions

- i like this "most of the time it is random what kind of battle you are playing", because it takes a lot into account that is difficult to implement into this game: Stuff like espionage, ambushes, information network (or lack of) - the more you think about it, the more does it make sense that you don't have 100% control over the kind of battles you have to fought.

- but i have a problem with "cruiser clash". If we are following the rules, dark eldar are only able to play this mission if BFG:FR dark eldar or book of nemesis rules are used - because otherwise they have to field 3 escorts per cruiser, and escorts are not allowed in this mission. And if we are looking only at the blue book, corsair eldar too can't play this mission (with armada, they can but the shouldn't ^^ ), because the blue book cruisers are both too expensive.

because of this, and because i just don't see a reason why escorts should not participate in this mission, i just change it to "just a regular space battle with the randomised point value".

2. faction relations

- there are factions who would never fight on the same side (according to the allied fleet chart in the FAQ). For example, space marines and [insert xenos faction of your choice here]. Forming two sides can be difficult; if we have imperials, corsair eldar and space marines - does it make sense to group them together aginst, for example chaos and tyranids? Both groups doesn't make sense. Tyranids would eat chaos planets. Corsair eldar would raid imperials and marines if the oportunity arises.

Because of this, i give every player their own "victory condition", which could be the same for some factions (in this example: imperials or space marines: X planets must be under imperial or marine control (they can win together if they don't attack each other, if they attack each other they will be separated), tyranids: X planets must be under tyranid control, chaos: X planets must be under chaos control, corsair eldar: Score the highest renown when the game ends (because another faction achieves victory).

This makes sure no faction gets "unexplainable allies".

However, i think the factions should be rewarded if they act according to their background. This reward should be great enough that it is worth taking it, but not so great that you have to get if you don't want to fall behind.

Because of this, every player who attacks another player who belongs to an "enemy" faction (according to the FAQ-chart), they will get +1 renown when renown is calculated after the battle (they still could end up with +/- 0 in the end). Example: Corsair eldar are enemys of chaos, the space marines and the tyranids, so they will get +1 renown if they choose to attack these factions. But, they still can attack the imperials if they think this could benefit them in some way (maybe they are close to archieving victory and the corsair player wants to have more time archieving more renown, so the imperial fleet could use some damage to slow them down...or maybe the imperial player uses a fleet register which doesn't contain enough long-range weapon batterys, so they are an easy target...).

With this 2 rules, every player has more freedom than the original "2 side" system allows, but will play his/her faction according to fluff to get this +1 renown - but this will change when oportunitys arise ore when "personal goals" like "revenge for this raid" or "going down on the faction wich grows too fast" come up.


edit: This may seem inbalanced because some factions may have more enemies than other factions and will be the target of more attacks. For example, everyone will get +1 renown if he/she attacks the tyranid player (exept other tyranids). But, this does also work the other way around: Tyranids will get this bonus after every attack (exept on other tyranids), so they don't have to think about this renown point at all. It doesn't matter who controls the system they wan't to invade.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:09:21 PM by Lotus »

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2016, 02:49:14 PM »
Resources was just a cool way, I thought, of adding "points" for you to buy additional options from the extra books that aren't reflected in Appeals tables.  Originally it was to upgrade to things like Daemonships and Space Marine crews, but as I started looking at the Appeals tables again, I realized those were already there in some form, so I just reformed them to take advantage of the new rules.  Then I started thinking of new things Resources could do, and it just kind of spiraled.  Note that it doesn't replace the Repair Points system, you still get Repair Points to fix your ships after a battle, the Resources just go towards adding new ships (paying their point cost) or upgrading existing ones with Fleet List options not present on the Appeals tables, or refits the ship itself can undergo in its own rules.

As far as missions go, the blue book works well enough (though, personally, I choose to ignore a number of scenarios, because the setups and victory conditions are wonky and unfun to me, but that's just me).  And I personally ignore subplots, too, but again that's just me.  If someone were working on retooling the scenarios to make them more comprehensible (I'm looking at you, Convoy/Fleet Engagement/Escalating Engagement!) and make Subplots more interesting, I might try my hand at reworking the Orders system.

For my purposes, Factions aren't that relevant.  I pretty much just play Chaos vs. Imperial (with the odd Space Marine thrown in).  Not sure what you're getting at with the rest of it.  The FAQ already states that Tyrannids and Necrons can't ally with anyone, so what's the problem?  I do like the bonus Renown for attacking enemies idea.

Offline Chios

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2016, 12:57:40 PM »
I really like the resources, will definitely nick those for the next campaign ;)

Two things I noticed about the "other" appeals charts:

Space Marine other appeals, roll of 7: Equipping a ship ship with Thunderhawks should halve its' launch bay capacity in the same way as per the venerable battlebarge or chaos space marine rules (Imagine an Emperor Class Battleship launching 8 Thunderhawks, ouch!)
Chaos gods other appeals, roll of 9: All Chaos Ships already have boarding torpedoes and assault boats... maybe you could substitute it with the option to buy chaos space marine strike cruisers? Since they are not readily available in most Chaos lists it would be the only way to incorporate them into your fleet registry... Downside is, this is essentially the same option the regular marines would have. Then again, Imperials have 2 types of vessels outside of their fleet list they can get via appeal, so one for Chaos might be prudent.

Offline Lotus

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2016, 01:17:50 PM »
Because in the rulebook example there are two "sides" in each campaign. All "evil" against all "good" (in your imperials vs chaos - example, tyranids and necrons would be on the chaos players side concerning victory conditions - they would be allied, even if this doesn't make sense), but you can't categorize all factions like that (thats why i apply this change). If you are going full "free for all" in a campaign, maybee this doesn't matter.

I doesn't use subplots as well, because i wan't to keep it as simple as possible. Exept someone uses ships witch come rulewise with aditional subplots (rogue traders for example).

While i like the idea of being able to have some influence on the refit/appeal-randomnes, this could be a serious balance problem (this doesn't "make it bad", it just causes more work or....more trouble.. ^^ ).

Example:

Eldar Weapon refits: there is one refit wich upgrades your weapon range by 15cm. In the BFG:FR version is written: this refit can't extend the range over 45cm. However, if you don't use BFG:FR, the official refit does not have this limitation, so it could be possible to have a void stalker with 60cm range somewhere in the campain. why is a 60cm range void stalker a problem: because you need to have weapon batterys with "range + movement" of at least 85cm to be able to hit this ship - and keep in mind that the most weapon batterys are broadsite weapons, so you will probably need even more range. i am not even sure if a ship like this does exist. ^^ in practice, this only happens wit some extreeme luck involved: you need to get a weapon refit (1/3 chance) and you need to score this range addition refit (1/6 chance) so we are talkin about a 1/18 chance here (something about 5-6%). But it doesn't end here: every time you did not get this "desired refit", you will get something else and a 10% point cost increase, which is huge on the void stalker. of course there could be something usefull, but when this ship some day may get the "desired refit", it will probably already have a bunch of other refits, with an increasing chance of having refits wich are worth less if you already have another similar one, and will be damn expensive (380 + 38 per refit), so the fact that you have a ship with 60cm+eldar hit and run movement will be at least somewhat balanced. using the resource rules, i could be able to archieve this kind of ship more early: geting a weapon refit (5/9 chance), geting the desired refit (11/36 chance) - the overall chance ist 55/344, or 16%. So, the chance is now like roling a six, instead of roling a 5 or 6 followed by another 6. My chance of geting this kind of ship is now 3 times more likely than before. of course, i have to pay the ressources, and i don't know what other players can do with their recources, but even if there are other combinations which are similar, this gives players and advantage if they have an eye for stuff like this - and that is not something you wan't in a campaign. I think the extreme randomness for refits and appeals is part of keeping unfair stuff rare. 16% seems to be not that high, but keep in mind that you will re-roll if you get the same refit twice, so the actual chance increases slightly with every refit.

Appeals can create a huge advantage, too. Free Space marine battle barge for example, these +425 could be an auto-win. the chance is low, so if it happes in the course of a campaign, it won't happen again (most of the time), and if you look at the granting chance allone (5+), it ofte does make more sense to go for reinforcements or maybee a refit if you have a ship which does deserve one in some way. increasing this this to 3+ means it is no longer an option with a high "you will get nothing" chance.

On another note, the chance is still there, which could mean that someone spends his hard-earned ressources and they are completly lost, which could have a negative impact on this players experience.

Maybe the randomness should be keept, but ressources could be used to make an random rolled refit even better in some way (but i am lacking ideas how atm).

Or they could grant some kind of benefit with a limited number of uses - for example: you could allow to buy special torpedoes with resources, but with a fixed price tag per single torpedo. so, maybe someone buys 12 of these nasty short-burn torpedoes, but after these are used he/she will have used the last one of them. and have to spend ressources on new ones if he/she wan'ts to use the again. This could even work for some refits in some way. There could be special fuel cells to use the "all ahead full"-refit, but only for a limited number of times - important is that these are not "refilled" after every battle. Since these benefits will have to be replaced, there is a constant "need" for the resources, while the ressource-effekt is more unlikely to stack up during the curse of the campaign, and this it should be more unlikely to be exploited in some way. You could compare this aproach to the economy in some video games, where players have to pay stuff to prevent inflation (repair costs for items or transportation costs).


btw: if the resources replace the renown system, how do players get renown? if renown is completly replaced, how to players earn fleet commander leadership and re-rolls?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 01:23:12 PM by Lotus »

Offline Chios

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2016, 01:40:24 PM »
As far as I understood it, Erik adressed the problem with the free battle barge in that he made it possible to buy it with resource points for the fleet registry.
So to actually get in in a battle, you would have to pay the full points cost of the battlebarge.
If you have the resource points at hand and roll appropriately on your appeal, you can unlock a single battlebarge as an additional class of vessel for your fleet list. You do not get an extra 425 points gifted for a battle. I really like that change by Erik, it is a very precise and effective adjustment I think.

The renown points are not completely replaced by the resource system. Only the extra renown for Victory points are replaced, and only IF you happen to hold the field. The rest of the renown +/- conditions still apply and generate renown as usual.

I did not look closely at the refits table before, but the example you gave seems worrying indeed. (I got a guy in my gaming group who snoops out stuff like this, i have to be prepared beforehand ;D) This might need some tweaking...

Should I have misunderstood something, correct me Erik^^

Offline Lotus

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2016, 02:22:16 PM »
The free battlebarge for a single battle is vanilla-appeal-chart content. he doesn't change the vanilla content, he changes the chance that an appeal is granted (the roll you have to make to be allowed to roll on the chart) - you can increase the chance for resource points.

On the renown points: thanks, i have misread this part!

its easy to tweak. just limit the range to 45cm, so the void stalker will have to re-roll this refit because it can't be aplied. i am not even sure if the void stalker was already there when the chart came out. ^^

btw: there is an eldar-weapon system with 60cm range (the pulsar cannon). But it is balanced, because when this weapon fires, the ship has to skip its move in the ordnance phase for that turn (because of energy drain). However, its from an warp rift magazine and can be mounted on a dragon ship or phoenix ship, so you have to agree on using it (because its from warp rift). In practice, the loss of the ordnance phase movement is a big deal, because it is damn dangerous to skip this move (suicidal), and your other weapons do not benefit from this (to use the 60 range would mean your other weapons (30 range) may have nothing in range).

But it is fun to have something above 45cm as an eldar player from time to time. Just for prestige reasons. :)

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2016, 03:29:38 PM »
I really like the resources, will definitely nick those for the next campaign ;)

Thanks.  Can't really take credit for it, ganked the idea from an Advanced Campaign Rules supplement I found, I think on a Forum search here.  The original was more in depth, with storage and transport capacity and the logistics of moving resources around so they'd be usable.  I didn't quite want to go that in-depth.

Two things I noticed about the "other" appeals charts:

Space Marine other appeals, roll of 7: Equipping a ship ship with Thunderhawks should halve its' launch bay capacity in the same way as per the venerable battlebarge or chaos space marine rules (Imagine an Emperor Class Battleship launching 8 Thunderhawks, ouch!)

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but why would Thunderhawks be worth twice as much as regular fighters/assault boats?  A 4+ invulnerable save is nice, sure, and they can do the job of both, but are they really that much more powerful?  In my experience, assault boats are kind of underwhelming in general, since unless you're attacking a ship you're currently firing on for extra criticals (in which case you should probably be destroying it soon anyway), crits can get fixed fast by a ship with 8 hits and no blast markers.  Not trying sound like a smart-mouth, genuinely curious what the balance considerations are.

Chaos gods other appeals, roll of 9: All Chaos Ships already have boarding torpedoes and assault boats... maybe you could substitute it with the option to buy chaos space marine strike cruisers? Since they are not readily available in most Chaos lists it would be the only way to incorporate them into your fleet registry... Downside is, this is essentially the same option the regular marines would have. Then again, Imperials have 2 types of vessels outside of their fleet list they can get via appeal, so one for Chaos might be prudent.

Well, the Boarding Torpedoes result was in the original appeals table, so I just left it.  Though I know Chaos ships automatically come with Assault Boats, I do recall recently tripping over the rule that they have boarding torpedoes as well.  Where are these Chaos Strike Cruisers?  Sounds like a promising option.

Because in the rulebook example there are two "sides" in each campaign. All "evil" against all "good" (in your imperials vs chaos - example, tyranids and necrons would be on the chaos players side concerning victory conditions - they would be allied, even if this doesn't make sense), but you can't categorize all factions like that (thats why i apply this change). If you are going full "free for all" in a campaign, maybee this doesn't matter.

Ah, okay.  Haven't really read victory conditions for campaigns with more than Imps/Chaos/Orks/Eldar, so didn't know about that.  Yeah, Tyrannids and Necrons should have their own victory conditions, independent from anyone else.  I just don't care enough to write them.

While i like the idea of being able to have some influence on the refit/appeal-randomnes, this could be a serious balance problem (this doesn't "make it bad", it just causes more work or....more trouble.. ^^ ).

It sure could.  Though it also avoids underwhelming results like "yay, another +5cm speed on my Slaughter" or "A left-shift to weapons fire on my Acheron."  With a Campaign Master keeping an eye out for really broken combos, I think the +10% points applied to each ship is a pretty good balancing factor.  The more upgrades an individual ship has, the more it limits your ability to bring additional ships, and volume of fire pretty consistently trumps everything else, at least in my experience.  Can't comment on your specific example, but it seems more like a problem with the upgrade itself rather than the system in general.  Apply errata/common sense as appropriate.

Appeals can create a huge advantage, too. Free Space marine battle barge for example, these +425 could be an auto-win. the chance is low, so if it happes in the course of a campaign, it won't happen again (most of the time), and if you look at the granting chance allone (5+), it ofte does make more sense to go for reinforcements or maybee a refit if you have a ship which does deserve one in some way. increasing this this to 3+ means it is no longer an option with a high "you will get nothing" chance.

As far as I understood it, Erik adressed the problem with the free battle barge in that he made it possible to buy it with resource points for the fleet registry.
So to actually get in in a battle, you would have to pay the full points cost of the battlebarge.
If you have the resource points at hand and roll appropriately on your appeal, you can unlock a single battlebarge as an additional class of vessel for your fleet list. You do not get an extra 425 points gifted for a battle. I really like that change by Erik, it is a very precise and effective adjustment I think.

Yeah, the "free battle barge" and "free strike cruiser" results never sat well with me, since they'd be game-breaking in the next mission.  So I changed it to allowing you to buy one (and only one) as though it was in your normal fleet list.  So if you roll three 2s on Space Marine appeals in a row, you can buy three Battle Barges. . . for 425 Resources each, and still have to allocate 425 points of your fleet in the next battle to actually bring it in.  Much more balanced, IMO.

On another note, the chance is still there, which could mean that someone spends his hard-earned ressources and they are completly lost, which could have a negative impact on this players experience.

Yeah, that's true.  On the other hand, the randomness of the Appeals tables can really shaft you already if the dice aren't being kind that day, this just gives you some more control over it.  It's a tactical choice. . . spend resources on adding ships to my fleet or swapping to a variant, or boosting my chances of adding a Chaos Lord to my retinue?

Maybe the randomness should be keept, but ressources could be used to make an random rolled refit even better in some way (but i am lacking ideas how atm).

The benefits are already pretty good I think (every thought I've had for improved/alternate refits pretty much falls into "while that would be awesome for me, playing against it would SUCK!).  And of course, that's why I put in the "20% pick one" option.  You still have to earn a Refit through the regular Appeals system, but once you do, you can really shell out to just grab one of whatever you want, bypassing all randomness.  So no wasted resources.

Or they could grant some kind of benefit with a limited number of uses - for example: you could allow to buy special torpedoes with resources, but with a fixed price tag per single torpedo. so, maybe someone buys 12 of these nasty short-burn torpedoes, but after these are used he/she will have used the last one of them. and have to spend ressources on new ones if he/she wan'ts to use the again. This could even work for some refits in some way. There could be special fuel cells to use the "all ahead full"-refit, but only for a limited number of times - important is that these are not "refilled" after every battle. Since these benefits will have to be replaced, there is a constant "need" for the resources, while the ressource-effekt is more unlikely to stack up during the curse of the campaign, and this it should be more unlikely to be exploited in some way. You could compare this aproach to the economy in some video games, where players have to pay stuff to prevent inflation (repair costs for items or transportation costs).

I like the idea of special torpedoes being bought with Resources (though I kind of hate torpedoes in general), bypassing the "one shot per game rule" and going with "I have as many salvos of this types as I can afford."  Another interesting tactical choice. . . do I add another ship, or turn my Retribution into Trogdor the Burninator with 28 loads of Melta Torpedoes?  I like.

The "boosts," less so.  The whole point of a refit, to me, is to either shore up a weakness in a specific ship design or help it play to its strengths.  For instance, he first two refits I like to get for my Chaos fleet are decreasing the turn distance of my Desolator by 5cm, and increasing the speed of my Repulsive by 5cm.  So my cruisers, heavy cruisers, grand cruiser, and battleship all have the same speed and maneuverability.  Of course, the random system means you might be stacking tons of other refits on these ships before you get to those, with the end result that when you finally nail down those choice add-ons, the ship's too expensive to practically deploy.  Hence, my rules to take some control over the random table.

btw: if the resources replace the renown system, how do players get renown? if renown is completly replaced, how to players earn fleet commander leadership and re-rolls?

The renown points are not completely replaced by the resource system. Only the extra renown for Victory points are replaced, and only IF you happen to hold the field. The rest of the renown +/- conditions still apply and generate renown as usual.

Precisely.  Thing is, if you fight a 1500-point battle, destroy all the enemy ships, and reduce half of them to Hulks, you'll shoot like three tiers up the rank chart in ONE BATTLE.  Doing a few test runs over Vassal, my brand-spanking new Chaos Champion was a Warmaster in, like, four turns.  That was just too frelling fast.  So, when I started in on the resource rule, I decided to nix the Victory Points from Renown, and transfer them to Resources.  Goes from a HUGE boost to Renown to a tiny boost to Resources, but an extra ten, fifteen, or seventeen resources can be a healthy addon.  Other Renown modifiers are applies as normal, giving a much more gradual progression, which I personally prefer.  But that can very much be an individual taste thing, and some campaigns and players may prefer the massive jumps if you're able to completely slaughter the enemy fleet.  So, YMMV.

I did not look closely at the refits table before, but the example you gave seems worrying indeed. (I got a guy in my gaming group who snoops out stuff like this, i have to be prepared beforehand ;D) This might need some tweaking...

Should I have misunderstood something, correct me Erik^^

Nope, think you got it alright.

And yeah, particular refits that are broken on particular vessels should be managed, but that's where the Golden Rule of Gaming comes in.  That, or any of the various unofficial rules tweak projects.

The free battlebarge for a single battle is vanilla-appeal-chart content. he doesn't change the vanilla content, he changes the chance that an appeal is granted (the roll you have to make to be allowed to roll on the chart) - you can increase the chance for resource points.

Uh, I totally did change the vanilla appeals charts.  Granted, a lot of the results are close to the same, but with callouts to specific rules (instead of Chaos Space Marines just granting a Boarding Bonus, you now benefit from the full rules of a Chaos Space Marine Crew as published.)  But others are tweaked to taste (like the Battle Barge/Strike Cruiser results and "Chaos Gods Smite You").  The tables are up there, and I'll actually be replacing them shortly since I've added a few new tables and shuffled some things around (giving Chaos "Forces of Chaos" and "Favors of the Chaos Gods" tables, one focusing on "real" benefits of Chaos, the other on "Chaos Magic," basically.)

Okay, I did break up the "Space Marine Ship" benefits into three or four different bonuses, but that seemed fair, and included the individual rules of each benefit in that bonus.  Would it make more sense to call out the specific Space Marine ship rule you're getting in the text, instead of reprinting the rule itself?

On the renown points: thanks, i have misread this part!

No worries, it happens.  If I was unclear, though, please let me know how I could make the point better.

Thanks for the replies, glad to see I'm contributing something useful!  Any clarifications needed, I'm happy to include.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 03:40:04 PM by ErikModi »

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 05:31:58 PM »
And here's the revised revised Other Appeals tables.  Took some cues from BFG Mag 12, but tried to make everything a bit more balanced, and to fall in line with other published rules (which is why Battle Sisters are in the Inquisition table, rather than their own Ecclesiarchy table.)

Rerolling Results:  Reroll any result on any table that cannot be applied, either because prerequistes are not met or the ability would illegally stack with another ability.
Example 1:  A Chaos Player rolls a 4 on a Forces of Chaos appeal, granting Chaos Terminators, but none of the ships in the fleet have a Chaos Space Marine crew yet, required for Chaos Terminators.  Reroll the result.
Example 2:  An Imperial Player rolls on the Space Marine Table and receives a Space Marine detachment, but the only eligible ship already has Battle Sisters (improving its boarding capabilities).  Reroll the result.

Space Marines Table
2d6   Troops
2   The Chapter reassigns a Battle Barge to your fleet.  You may allocate resources to add a Space Marine Battle Barge to your Fleet Registry.
3   The Chapter reassigns a Strike Cruiser to your fleet.  You may allocate resources to add a Space Marine Strike Cruiser to your Fleet Registry.
4   The Chapter sends a Space Marine Captain to oversee one of your ships.  The selected ship adds +2 to its Leadership (to a maximum of ten).  Reroll this result if your fleet already has three Secondary Commanders.
5   The Chapter sends a company of Space Marines, which are assigned to one ship of your choice.  The selected ship gains +2 to Boarding Actions, and +1 to Hit-and-Run attacks.
6   The Chapter retrofits one of your ships with drop pods.  A ship so refitted applies +2 planetary assault points, instead of +1.
7   The Chapter supplies you with Thunderhawk Gunships.  One ship may replace its fighters and assault boats with Thunderhawk Gunships (Armada, p 21).
8   The Chapter supplies you with boarding torpedoes.  One ship may carry boarding torpedoes in addition to regular torpedoes.
9   The Chapter sends a squad of Space Marine Terminators.  One ship gains a Terminator Boarding Party (FAQ, page 54).
10   The Chapter sends Space Marine Sergeants to drill your crews in boarding actions.  One ship of your choice may reroll the dice in boarding actions for the remainder of the campaign.
11   The Chapter conducts raids on your opponents’ supply lines.  Reduce one opponent’s resources by d6x10 and add the same amount to your resource total.
12   The Chapter conducts raids on your opponent’s planetary defenses.  In the next game in which your opponent has planetary defenses, their value is reduced by d6x30 points.

Inquisition Table
2d6   Troops
2   The Inquisition searches for heretics among the crew of your own fleet, inspiring the crews to prove their loyalty.  In the next battle, each ship may reroll one Leadership test.  If the reroll results in a failure, that ship loses 1 Leadership.
3   The Inquisition marks one of your ships for its Ordos.  Select one ship not already marked by an Ordo, mark that ship as belonging to the Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Xenos, or Ordo Malleus.
4   An Inquisition Elite Captain is assigned to one of your ships.  The chosen ship gains +1 Leadership.  The Captain marks his ship for the Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Xenos, or Ordo Malleus.  Reroll this result if your fleet already has three Secondary Commanders.
5   An Adepta Sororitas Mission joins one of your ships.  One Ordo Hereticus ship in your fleet gains a Battle Sisters Detachment (BFGXR-I, page 5).  If it already has a Battle Sisters Detachment, it gains a Celestian Strike Team as well (BFGXR, page 5).
6   The Inquisition supplies one of your Ordo Hereticus ships with Inferno torpedoes (BFGXR-I, page 5).
7   Inquisition soldiers and specialists flock to your cause, forming a personal bodyguard.  Your Flagship gains an Inquisitorial Retinue (BFGXR-I, page 4).
8   Deathwatch Space Marines are assigned to your cause.  One Ordo Xenos ship gains Deathwatch Terminators (BFGXR-I, page 5).
9   The Inquisition equips one of your ships with Thunderhawk gunships.  One of your ships replaces its fighter and assault boat complement with Thunderhawks.
10   The Grey Knights rally to you.  Select one Ordo Malleus ship to gain Grey Knight Purifiers (BFGXR-I, page 5).
11   The Inquisition allows you use of one of their special cruisers, or retasks a Grey Knights Strike cruiser to your fleet.  You may allocate Resources to add an Inquisitorial Cruiser or Grey Knights Strike Cruiser to your Fleet Registry.
12   The Inquisition grants you dispensation to use one of their Blackships or a Grey Knights Battle Barge.  You may allocate resources to add an Inquisitorial Blackship or Grey Knights Battle Barge to your Fleet Registry.

Adeptus Mechanicus Table
2d6   Troops
2   Adeptus Mechanicus Techpriests and Enginseers treat your ship like one of their own, for better and worse.  Select one ship in your fleet that has an Adeptus Mechanicus appeal.  Generate an additional subplot for that ship from the Quest for Knowledge table (BFGXR-AM, page 4).
3   The Adeptus Mechanicus assignes Techpriests and Enginseers to one of your ships.  The ship benefits from the Tech-Priest Enginseers rule (BFGXR-AM, page 4).
4   The Enginseers keep their assigned ship in the best of condition, repairing it with miraculous speed.  The ship repairs one hit automatically at the end of each battle (whether it participated or not).
5   The Adeptus Mechanicus work overtime to supply your fleet.  Each Industrial, Forge, and Knight world you control generates +2 repair points next Campaign turn (with an equal increase in gained Resources).
6   The Adeptus Mechanicus refits the torpedo systems on one of your ships.  Before each battle, the selected ship may roll on the Refitted Torpedoes table (BFGXR-AM, page 3).
7   The Mechanicus Techpriests tinker with one of your ships.  Select one ship that has an Adeptus Mechanicus appeal.  That ship may roll on the Mechanicus Gift table before each battle (BFGXR-AM, page 3).
8   The Mechanicus ability to refit and upgrade ships is nothing short of astounding.  Select one ship.  Whenever you roll for Refits for that ship, roll three dice and pick one result.
9   The speed and efficiency with which the Mechanicus work is legend, even in the smallest of craft.  Select one ship with launch bays.  That ship’s launch bay capacity is considered doubled when determining how many Attack Craft you may have in play.
10   The Adeptus Mechanicus reroute resources, materiel, and knowledge to your fleet.  You add +1 to your roll when appealing for a refit.
11   The Adeptus Mechanicus reassigns one of their specially-designed ships to your fleet.  You may allocate resources to purchase any Adeptus Mechanicus cruiser.
12   The Adeptus Mechanicus grants you use of one of their most sacred vessels.  You may allocate resources to add a non-unique Adeptus Mechanicus battleship to your fleet.

Forces of Chaos Table
2d6   Result
2   Chaos cultists serve you with devotion.  One ship in your fleet with a Leadership less than 8 increases its Leadership by one.
3   Dark Mechanicus Hereteks oversee damage control and repair on one of your ships.  Select a ship in your Fleet Registry, once per battle that ship may repair one hit instantly.
4   Chosen Terminators join your fleet.  One Battleship or Grand Cruiser with a Chaos Space Marine crew gains a Terminator Teleport Assault.
5   A mighty Champion of the Dark Gods agrees to join your retinue of followers. You may add a Chaos Lord (with a Mark of Chaos or re-roll if you wish) to your Fleet Registry.  Reroll this result if you already have three Chaos Lords in your fleet.
6   A Chaos Space Marine battle force will act as your personal bodyguard.  Your Flagship is treated as having a Chaos Space Marine crew (Armada, p 45).  Reroll this result if your flagship already has a Chaos Space Marine Crew.
7   A force of Chaos Space Marines rally to your cause.  Any one ship in your fleet may be upgraded to a Chaos Space Marine crew (Armada, p 45).  Reroll this result if all ships in the fleet already have Chaos Space Marines.
8   The Chaos Forces bless one of your ships.  A ship with a Chaos Lord or Chaos Space Marine crew receives one Mark of Chaos or reroll, if it does not already have one.
9   Piratical renegades flock to your cause. One ship in your fleet may be equipped with boarding torpedoes and/or Dreadclaw assault boats.
10   Chaos Space Marines re-equip one of your carriers.  One ship with launch bays replaces its fighters and assault boats with Thunderhawk gunships.
11   An elite force of special Chaos Space Marines (Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Berzekers, etc. as appropriate) joins your fleet.  One ship with a Chaos Space Marine Crew may roll two dice for hit-and-run attacks, picking one result (this can stack with Chosen Terminators, allowing three dice for a single teleport attack to be rolled).
12   A powerful and terrifying force of Obliterators join your fleet.  One ship with a Chaos Space Marine crew now has Obliterators, adding an extra teleport attack.

Favors of the Dark Gods Table
2d6   Result
2   The Ruinous Powers seize one of your ships for themselves.  One ship in your Fleet Registry becomes a Daemonship, losing all other upgrades (except Marks) and crew skills and following all other rules for Daemonships.
3   A swirling vortex of Chaos surrounds one of your ships.  Nominate one of your ships.  In the next battle, any enemy vessels within 15cm at the end of any Movement phase have one Blast marker placed in contact with their base.
4   The Chaos Gods grant you a glimpse of the future.  You may re-roll the dice for Initiative in the next Campaign turn.
5   A mighty Sorcerer joins your fleet, bringing with him a legion of summoned Daemons.  One ship in your fleet may, once per game, reroll all dice for a boarding action, or gain a 4+ save to negate any hit and run attacks for one turn.
6   Legions of mighty Daemons are called down upon your foes.  The next time you fight a Planetary Assault scenario, roll a d6 in each of your End Phases.  On a 6, you gain one Assault Point.
7   The Chaos Gods and their forces disrupt your enemies’ supply lines.  One opponent loses d6x10 resources, add that amount of resources to your total.
8   Daemon entities from the Warp seethe and writhe about one of your ships.  Nominate one capital ship during the next battle.  A single enemy ship with 15cm during your end phase is attacked as if by one squadron of bombers.
9   A ward of Chaos protects one of your ships.  In the next battle, any enemy shooting at that ship suffers a right-column shift (before any other shifts).
10   The powers of corruption and temptation bring followers to your retinue from enemy forces.  You may allocate resources to add one Imperial ship to your Fleet Registry.
11   The seething, chaotic energies of the Warp make the impossible probable.  Next turn, double the amount of Repair Points (and Resources) from worlds you control.
12   Chaos cultists erect a temple to the Dark Powers on one of your ships.  One ship with a Mark of Chaos increases the Mark’s effect as follows:  Slaanesh increases range to 30cm, Khorne can reroll all dice in a boarding action (in addition to any other allowed rerolls), Tzeentch gains an additional reroll, Nurgle gains an additional hit.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 05:39:35 PM by ErikModi »

Offline Chios

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 12:31:43 PM »
I love the rebalancing so far, although I would like to adress a problem I see with the Forces of Chaos chart.

Basically, there are two ways of aquiring CSM Crews (seeing as they cannot be bought initially as per your first post): The flagship may appeal for them on a roll of 6 or any capital ship might get them via a roll of 7. Now there are 3 appeals that require a CSM crew beforehand. Together with the number 9 (assault boats and boarding torpedoes) I see a potential 1 in 3 chance of successfully rolling for my appeal without getting ANYTHING as a result.
The easiest solution would be to be able to re-roll any grant that is not applicable.
Another way could be that the rolls that require CSM crews could grant said crews instead if ncessary, but that would fill the fleet registry with a pure CSM roster very quickly, and I think CSM should be a little bit more rare.

Inspired by "Piratical renegades flock to your cause." for the roll of 9, how about "add an additional chaos or imperial escort to one of your fleet registry's squadrons".
This would bring the costs of the squadron up by the appropriate amount, so no free ships, and you could argue that the higher leadership or cewskills a latecomer escort would get (if indeed the squadron earned some upgrades in that regard) are due to them being tough, mean pirates who plagued the void for a long time, so they already know what they are doing.

On a side note, tomorrow I got a big BFG game with my gaming group, where i will show them the campaign rules. Your implementation of the resource rules and appeal charts is going to be a given  ;)

Edit: in response to the Thunderhawk-launch bay-halving: The halving of launch bay capacity for thunderhawks (including those gained through refits or the appeal table) was introduced in the FAQ 2007 and is also in the FAQ 2010. From my experience, keeping a Space Marine Fleets Thunderhawks at bay is quite the task, although I cannot comment on wether that is because almost everything in the Space Marine Fleet has them.
From my experience, Thunderhawks vs. ordinary ordonance indeed trade roughly 2:1, maybe a tiny bit worse for the Thunderhawks... then again, Space Marine Leadership usually lets them replenish almost all of their ordonance while other fleets fail to reload from time to time, keeping the balance even to slightly favouring the thunderhawks overall. Other people's mileage may vary ;)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 02:16:32 PM by Chios »

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2016, 02:53:54 PM »
I love the rebalancing so far, although I would like to adress a problem I see with the Forces of Chaos chart.

Basically, there are two ways of aquiring CSM Crews (seeing as they cannot be bought initially as per your first post): The flagship may appeal for them on a roll of 6 or any capital ship might get them via a roll of 7. Now there are 3 appeals that require a CSM crew beforehand. Together with the number 9 (assault boats and boarding torpedoes) I see a potential 1 in 3 chance of successfully rolling for my appeal without getting ANYTHING as a result.
The easiest solution would be to be able to re-roll any grant that is not applicable.

I thought that was understood, but look at the main rules again, it indeed does not seem to be.  I'll fix that.  A few results have specific conditions for rerolls, like no more than three Secondary Commanders, but I thought that in general if you rolled an inapplicable result, you re-rolled it.

Another way could be that the rolls that require CSM crews could grant said crews instead if ncessary, but that would fill the fleet registry with a pure CSM roster very quickly, and I think CSM should be a little bit more rare.

I personally like having CSM crews on all my ships, but that's just me, and balance in individual games can vary.  There's certainly an opening for saying that only a certain percentage of the fleet can have CSMs (or SMs for that matter), if people want to do that.

Inspired by "Piratical renegades flock to your cause." for the roll of 9, how about "add an additional chaos or imperial escort to one of your fleet registry's squadrons".
This would bring the costs of the squadron up by the appropriate amount, so no free ships, and you could argue that the higher leadership or cewskills a latecomer escort would get (if indeed the squadron earned some upgrades in that regard) are due to them being tough, mean pirates who plagued the void for a long time, so they already know what they are doing.

Hmm, that's another possibility.

On a side note, tomorrow I got a big BFG game with my gaming group, where i will show them the campaign rules. Your implementation of the resource rules and appeal charts is going to be a given  ;)

Wow, thanks!  Glad you like them, hope your group does to!

Edit: in response to the Thunderhawk-launch bay-halving: The halving of launch bay capacity for thunderhawks (including those gained through refits or the appeal table) was introduced in the FAQ 2007 and is also in the FAQ 2010. From my experience, keeping a Space Marine Fleets Thunderhawks at bay is quite the task, although I cannot comment on wether that is because almost everything in the Space Marine Fleet has them.
From my experience, Thunderhawks vs. ordinary ordonance indeed trade roughly 2:1, maybe a tiny bit worse for the Thunderhawks... then again, Space Marine Leadership usually lets them replenish almost all of their ordonance while other fleets fail to reload from time to time, keeping the balance even to slightly favouring the thunderhawks overall. Other people's mileage may vary ;)

Thanks.  I'll include the halving.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 05:43:21 PM by ErikModi »

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2016, 03:33:26 AM »
Okay, think I've cracked how to deal with the "piratical renegades" result in the Forces of Chaos Appeals table.  Made some slight changes, but I think it works:

2d6   Result
2   New “traitor” forces bolster your fleet.  You may allocate resources to add one Chaos Space Marine Battle Barge to your fleet (stats as a standard Space Marine Battle Barge, with Chaos Space Marine crew rules).
3   New “traitor” forces bolster your fleet.  You may allocate resources to add one Chaos Space Marine Strike Cruiser to your flee (stats as a standard Space Marine Strike Cruiser, with Chaos Space Marine crew rules).
4   Chosen Terminators join your fleet.  One Battleship or Grand Cruiser with a Chaos Space Marine crew gains a Terminator Teleport Assault.
5   A mighty Champion of the Dark Gods agrees to join your retinue of followers. You may add a Chaos Lord (with a Mark of Chaos or re-roll if you wish) to your Fleet Registry.  Reroll this result if you already have three Chaos Lords in your fleet.
6   A Chaos Space Marine battle force will act as your personal bodyguard.  Your Flagship is treated as having a Chaos Space Marine crew (Armada, p 45).  Reroll this result if your flagship already has a Chaos Space Marine Crew.
7   A force of Chaos Space Marines rally to your cause.  Any one ship in your fleet may be upgraded to a Chaos Space Marine crew (Armada, p 45).  Reroll this result if all ships in the fleet already have Chaos Space Marines.
8   The Chaos Forces bless one of your ships.  A ship with a Chaos Lord or Chaos Space Marine crew receives one Mark of Chaos or reroll, if it does not already have one.
9   Dark Mechanicus Hereteks oversee damage control and repair on one of your ships.  Select a ship in your Fleet Registry, once per battle that ship may repair one hit instantly.
10   Chaos Space Marines re-equip one of your carriers.  One ship with launch bays replaces its fighters and assault boats with Thunderhawk gunships, halving its launch capacity.
11   An elite force of special Chaos Space Marines (Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Berzekers, etc. as appropriate) joins your fleet.  One ship with a Chaos Space Marine Crew may roll two dice for hit-and-run attacks, picking one result (this can stack with Chosen Terminators, allowing three dice for a single teleport attack to be rolled).
12   A powerful and terrifying force of Obliterators join your fleet.  One ship with a Chaos Space Marine crew now has Obliterators, adding an extra teleport attack.

Basically, the idea is that new Space Marines are going to Chaos all the time (more or less), and some of these bring the newer Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers with them (since Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, near as I can tell, didn't exist in their current forms during the Horus Heresy).  So, like the Space Marines table, you get the option to buy a Battle Barge or Strike Cruiser for your Chaos fleet.  It loses the "Chaos Cultists" result from earlier, but I was never really happy with that one. . . I wanted to include Cultists in some way, and that was kind of always a case of "not knowing what to do, this is what I did."

Offline Lotus

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 12:02:17 PM »
The problem i see: The option to be able to buy a ship alone is not a real benefit. Its more like a "flavor-option". Other results on the chart give a direct advantage without increasing point costs. The option to buy a certain ship gives no direct advantage, just another option how you could spend your points.

Maybe you could add some kind of discount. Maybe the traitor ship could be 10% cheaper or something like that, something that make clear that there is a direct advantage in using this randomly rolled ship.

Offline ErikModi

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Re: Campaign Rules Addon
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 01:51:27 PM »
The problem i see: The option to be able to buy a ship alone is not a real benefit. Its more like a "flavor-option". Other results on the chart give a direct advantage without increasing point costs. The option to buy a certain ship gives no direct advantage, just another option how you could spend your points.

Maybe you could add some kind of discount. Maybe the traitor ship could be 10% cheaper or something like that, something that make clear that there is a direct advantage in using this randomly rolled ship.

See, to my way of thinking, being able to add the rather powerful Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges is an advantage in and of itself.  It's not something that normally appears in a Chaos fleet (or Imperial Navy fleet for that matter), so opens up new tactics for the player who has one versus the player who does not, and someone who knows how to fight Chaos can have a wrench thrown into their plans by a ship that functions rather differently than the "typical" Chaos ship.  And if Chaos would get a price break on their Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges, shouldn't the IN get that as well?