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Author Topic: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship  (Read 2813 times)

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Offline Fr05ty

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Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« on: April 04, 2016, 05:16:02 AM »
Well, I can't claim to have created this battleship. I will however try to tweak it so that it makes sense as a 405-point vessel. For the nice PDF that someone made a long time ago, I've attached it so that you see how it looks, the fluff of it and its initial iteration.

Right, now to the meaty stuff:

Dethroner class Battleship - 405 points



The Dethroner class Battleship was built in a small numbers during the later years of the 36th Millenium, in the Reeash Forgeworld repair dockyard (Segmentus Tempestus) as a cheap, field conversion of Conquest Battleship. According to Adeptus Mechanicus archives, at least four vessels were rebuilt to this configuration, but nowadays no Dethroner serves in the Imperial Navy.
The Heart of the Galaxy was lost during the battle at Alveo II in the middle of the 37th Millenium, when it was overwhelmed by Ork Kroozers. After a long fight of nearly 18 hours, the ship exploded but managed to destroy at least 3 Capital ships and a couple of Escorts before it went.
The Bright Star exploded in 989.M37, when its Plasma Drive was overloaded in the Uviro III dockyards, as a result of sabotage. The explosion killed all its crew and heavily damaged a few other ships and the docks themselves.
In the beginning of the 38th Millenium, after the battle of Artemida III, the heavily damaged Light of the Emperor was reverted back to a Conquest class, which fits standard Imperial Navy doctrine much better.
The last Dethoner class battleship - the Saltatio Fidusum - was lost in the Perseus Nebula, when it was captured by two Chaos battleships. She was renamed the Saltatio Damnatibus by its new captain, and disappered for more than one hundred years. In the Second and Third century of the 38th Millenium she saw much combat, and plagued Imperial systems almost throughout the Imperium, wandering from sector to sector, and left only death and destruction behind her, avoiding confrontation with the Imperial Navy. She was finally stopped in an ambush at the Usmeutus passage, when she was crippled and barely menage to escape intact.
There is an Adeptus Mechanicus legend about three other Dethroner battleships, but there is no confirmation of this. All information about them was lost during a Chaos raid in 198.M40, when the Forgeworld archives were hit by a torpedo.


Type/Hits Speed Turns Shields Armour Turrets
Battleship/1220cm4545+5
ArmamentRng/SpdFirepower/StrArc
Prow Torpedoes30cm6Front
Prow weapon battery60cm6Left/Front/Right
Dorsal weapon battery60cm8Left/Front/Right
Port launch baysAs attack craft3-
Port lance battery45cm3Left
Starboard launch baysAs attack craft3-
Starboard lance battery45cm3Right

The Dethroner class Battleship carries Swiftdeath fighters, Doomfire bombers and Dreadclaw assault boats.

Special rules:
The Dethroner class battleship cannot be given Come to New Heading orders. As with all Reeash pattern battleships, the Dethroner has a traditional symmetrically built engine compartment. Unfortunately this reduces the ship's performance so the Dethroner rolls only 2D6 on All Ahead Full! special orders.

Options:
During the War in the Purity sub-sector in the 38th Millenium, the engines of the Statio Damnatibus were refitted and the mass of the ship was reduced. The ship gains +5cm of speed, but has a reduce launch bay capacity from 3 to 2 at no extra cost.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 11:25:05 PM by Fr05ty »

Offline Xca|iber

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 06:06:49 AM »
So, full disclaimer: I mostly rewrite rules over making them myself. Where I do create content, I do so by copying stuff that's similar and tweaking it in a kind of simple "zero-sum" fashion. I do this because my understanding of the intricacies of BFG balance is somewhat limited, so anything I have to say on these rules should be taken within the context of comparing it to the closest thing I'm aware of.

...and that would be the Desecrator Battleship.  ;)

Right off the bat, I notice that the Dethroner has 5 turrets instead of the traditional 4 for Chaos Battleships. I'm not sure the extra turret is necessary unless there's a very specific reason for it to have all 5. Suggestion: 4 Turrets and drop the price 5pts.

So if we shave off those 5pts and the turret, we have a vessel which is 35pts more expensive than a Desecrator. In terms of direct comparison, we're now looking at:

  • -3 Torpedo Strength
  • +5 Battery Firepower (total)
  • +2 AC capacity
  • -2 Lance Strength
  • -2D6 on AAF
  • Option for +5cm Speed by losing 2 AC capacity

All the ranges, arcs, and ACs are the same, so the above list is really what we need to evaluate. For 35 points, there's not a lot of benefits to using the Dethroner over a Desecrator. You're gaining a little bit of gunnery firepower and a couple of AC squadrons, but you give up lance strength, AAF speed, and torpedo strength. Moreover, even if the weapons are brought up to parity for the +35pt cost, now we're left with a slightly toothier Desecrator for a few more points...

At this point I'm not sure exactly what to do :-[. My gut says something like boost it to S9 torpedoes, and make both of the weapon batteries F10. If we do that, you're trading Lance Strength for AC Capacity, and gaining +11 Battery Firepower in exchange for 35pts and the weakened AAF drawback, which seems maybe reasonable? But again, it's still just a big slow Desecrator with a fatter top gun (that's resistant to crit damage, since it's 2 guns), and a pair of lances swapped for bays. While it might be worth its points then, I'm not certain that it's necessarily unique enough to really meet the requirements of a totally new class of Battleship.

That's about all I've got, I'm sorry to admit. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will swoop in to explain how I'm all wrong ;D. I do really like the look of the ship and the fluff (I'm a sucker for that Repulsive class prow), so I hope you can get the balancing worked out. ;)

Cheers,

Xca|iber

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Offline Fr05ty

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2016, 04:39:02 PM »
So, full disclaimer: I mostly rewrite rules over making them myself. Where I do create content, I do so by copying stuff that's similar and tweaking it in a kind of simple "zero-sum" fashion. I do this because my understanding of the intricacies of BFG balance is somewhat limited, so anything I have to say on these rules should be taken within the context of comparing it to the closest thing I'm aware of.

...and that would be the Desecrator Battleship.  ;)

Right off the bat, I notice that the Dethroner has 5 turrets instead of the traditional 4 for Chaos Battleships. I'm not sure the extra turret is necessary unless there's a very specific reason for it to have all 5. Suggestion: 4 Turrets and drop the price 5pts.

So if we shave off those 5pts and the turret, we have a vessel which is 35pts more expensive than a Desecrator. In terms of direct comparison, we're now looking at:

  • -3 Torpedo Strength
  • +5 Battery Firepower (total)
  • +2 AC capacity
  • -2 Lance Strength
  • -2D6 on AAF
  • Option for +5cm Speed by losing 2 AC capacity

All the ranges, arcs, and ACs are the same, so the above list is really what we need to evaluate. For 35 points, there's not a lot of benefits to using the Dethroner over a Desecrator. You're gaining a little bit of gunnery firepower and a couple of AC squadrons, but you give up lance strength, AAF speed, and torpedo strength. Moreover, even if the weapons are brought up to parity for the +35pt cost, now we're left with a slightly toothier Desecrator for a few more points...

At this point I'm not sure exactly what to do :-[. My gut says something like boost it to S9 torpedoes, and make both of the weapon batteries F10. If we do that, you're trading Lance Strength for AC Capacity, and gaining +11 Battery Firepower in exchange for 35pts and the weakened AAF drawback, which seems maybe reasonable? But again, it's still just a big slow Desecrator with a fatter top gun (that's resistant to crit damage, since it's 2 guns), and a pair of lances swapped for bays. While it might be worth its points then, I'm not certain that it's necessarily unique enough to really meet the requirements of a totally new class of Battleship.

That's about all I've got, I'm sorry to admit. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will swoop in to explain how I'm all wrong ;D. I do really like the look of the ship and the fluff (I'm a sucker for that Repulsive class prow), so I hope you can get the balancing worked out. ;)

Cheers,

Xca|iber

Thanks Xcal! I had been comparing it to the Despoiler instead of the Desecrator. Now I can compare both ships to the Dethroner.
The Despoiler with 400pts has:
+3 torps
+6 WB (Although these are broadsides)
-3 Lances (But the Despoiler's lances have 60cm range and are Dorsal)
-1 Turret
+2D6 on AAF

I had chosen to err on the side of caution, but guess I should buff it by all accounts then!

The only changes I did to the original Dethroner was making its weapon batteries and lances longer ranged (They all used to be 30cm, something woefully inadequate and flavorless for a Chaos battleship).

On the matter of the 5 turrets, I find it to be a nice distinguishing point from the other Chaos battleships without breaking the game. I'll buff it a bit and repost it here, I'm still going to err on the side of making the Dethroner slightly weaker than its cost would allow just to ensure there are no balance issues with the other ships :)

Would buffing it to have 8 launch bays do? The model would suggest it has that many as well. The Despoiler at 390pts has 8 launch bays but doesn't have the torpedoes...

PS: I do find it to be a damned (pun intended) gorgeous ship!! The only change I'd do is to change the launch bays to sit farther back and shift the lances to the front of them so it looks sleeker and like a sword when looked at from above hehehehe
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 04:44:46 PM by Fr05ty »

Offline Xca|iber

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 09:14:13 AM »
It occurs to me (as I'm flipping through various BFG:R stuff) that another good ship for comparison would be the Omnissiah's Victory (the Ark Mechanicus in the AdMech book). It's the same cost and has some similarities in its stat-line to the Dethroner (like the 5 turrets). In fact, I might say that a good fluff explanation for the Dethroner having 5 turrets is that it was originally a Dark Mechanicum design; a sort of Chaos Ark Mechanicus.

In any case, the OV has 20@60cm Gunnery (LR), 6@60cm Lances (2L, 2R, and 2FLR), and a Nova Cannon. Along with that it's got some fancy special rules - enemy gunnery gets a right shift against it, enemy lances only hit it on a 5+, its own gunnery gets a left shift, and its own lances score 2 hits on a roll of 6.

So generally speaking, a Dethroner with 20@60cm (FLR) Gunnery, 6@45cm (LR) lances, S9 torpedoes and 6 launch bays with the AAF drawback should be approximately the same, at least as far as I understand. (The Nova Cannon swaps for the torpedoes, and the launch bays + drawback swap for the fancy special rules). Anyway, this is all just another possible angle of comparison.

I'd say try it out a few times and see how it feels. If it's too strong you can always back it off a bit.
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Offline Fr05ty

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 12:55:59 AM »
It occurs to me (as I'm flipping through various BFG:R stuff) that another good ship for comparison would be the Omnissiah's Victory (the Ark Mechanicus in the AdMech book). It's the same cost and has some similarities in its stat-line to the Dethroner (like the 5 turrets). In fact, I might say that a good fluff explanation for the Dethroner having 5 turrets is that it was originally a Dark Mechanicum design; a sort of Chaos Ark Mechanicus.

In any case, the OV has 20@60cm Gunnery (LR), 6@60cm Lances (2L, 2R, and 2FLR), and a Nova Cannon. Along with that it's got some fancy special rules - enemy gunnery gets a right shift against it, enemy lances only hit it on a 5+, its own gunnery gets a left shift, and its own lances score 2 hits on a roll of 6.

So generally speaking, a Dethroner with 20@60cm (FLR) Gunnery, 6@45cm (LR) lances, S9 torpedoes and 6 launch bays with the AAF drawback should be approximately the same, at least as far as I understand. (The Nova Cannon swaps for the torpedoes, and the launch bays + drawback swap for the fancy special rules). Anyway, this is all just another possible angle of comparison.

I'd say try it out a few times and see how it feels. If it's too strong you can always back it off a bit.

As usual, thanks for your comments! I'm assuming you spotted this while doing the AdMech codex for BFG:XR.
I don't feel like the Dethroner deserves the 20WB, with the most plausible fix being the addition of 2 more Launch Bays. This will make it compete with the Despoiler but it wouldn't be outright better. I'll post a comparison of the 4 ships in a bit (Dethroner, Despoiler, Ark Mechanicus and Desecrator) so I can see how they all compare to the modified Dethroner.

Offline Fr05ty

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2016, 05:09:55 AM »
Ok, time to compare! I'll compare the updated Dethroner (shown below) to the Chaos Desecrator Battleship, the Chaos Despoiler Battleship, the AdMech Ark Mechanicus and the Imperial Emperor Battleship.
Quote
Dethroner class Battleship - 405 points

Type/Hits Speed Turns Shields Armour Turrets
Battleship/1220cm4545+5
ArmamentRng/SpdFirepower/StrArc
Prow Torpedoes30cm6Front
Prow weapon battery60cm6Left/Front/Right
Dorsal weapon battery60cm8Left/Front/Right
Port launch baysAs attack craft4-
Port lance battery45cm3Left
Starboard launch baysAs attack craft4-
Starboard lance battery45cm3Right

The Dethroner class Battleship carries Swiftdeath fighters, Doomfire bombers and Dreadclaw assault boats.

Special rules:
The Dethroner class battleship cannot be given Come to New Heading orders. As with all Reeash pattern battleships, the Dethroner has a traditional symmetrically built engine compartment. Unfortunately this reduces the ship's performance so the Dethroner rolls only 2D6 on All Ahead Full! special orders.

Options:
During the War in the Purity sub-sector in the 38th Millenium, the engines of the Statio Damnatibus were refitted and the mass of the ship was reduced. The ship gains +5cm of speed, but has a reduce launch bay capacity from 4 to 3 at no extra cost.

Chaos Desecrator (365 points)
The extra 40 points from a Desecrator to a Dethroner get you:
+4 Launch bays
+5 Weapon batteries
+1 Turret
-3 Torpedoes
-2 Lances
-2D6 on AAF

Verdict: Sounds fair to me

Chaos Despoiler (390 points)
The extra 15 points from a Despoiler to a Dethroner get you:
+3 Lances
+1 Turret
+6 Torpedoes
-6 Weapon Batteries
-15cm Lance range
-2D6 on AAF

Verdict: Think it might slightly lean on the Dethroner's favour

Imperial Emperor (370 points w/ Assault Boats)
The extra 35 points from an Emperor to a Dethroner get you:
+6 Lances
+6 Torpedoes
+5cm speed
-8 Weapon Batteries
-1 Leadership
-2D6 on AAF

Verdict: Sounds fair; that +1 Leadership on the Emperor coupled with both being Ordnance-reliant ships makes a great difference.

AdMech Ark Mechanicus (405 points)
This should be a straight comparison, the Dethroner has the following differences over the Ark Mechanicus:
+6 Torpedoes
+8 Launch Bays
-1 Nova Cannon
-6 Weapon Batteries
-15cm Lance range
-6+ Armoured Prow
-2D6 on AAF
-Advanced Shields
-Augmented Weapon Relays

Verdict: Definitely fair, Nova Cannon, Armoured Prow, Advanced Shields and Augmented Weapon Relays make this a leviathan compared to the Dethroner. The only real advantage the Dethroner has is in it's ordnance, but that requires a permanent command check to keep working basically.


Overall verdict: Think this new iteration of the Dethroner is a balanced ship when compared to the similar ships that are available. I also feel it is different enough to warrant its place in the Chaos Battleship lineup.

Anybody want to comment on this? If you do, please comment on the individual comparisons as well as the general conclusion. Thanks!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 09:16:24 PM by Fr05ty »

Offline Xca|iber

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2016, 06:41:19 AM »
Looks good (insofar as my understanding of balance goes). If I had to make only one more suggestion, I'd divide the Dethroner's WBs evenly, instead of the 8/6 split. 7/7 seems a bit more intuitive I think. That way you'd have:

4 Bays + 3 Lances = 7 "strength" port & starboard
7 firepower on the dorsal side
7 firepower up front
Then the standard 6 torpedoes.
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Offline Fr05ty

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Re: Chaos Dethroner class Battleship
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 06:17:54 PM »
Looks good (insofar as my understanding of balance goes). If I had to make only one more suggestion, I'd divide the Dethroner's WBs evenly, instead of the 8/6 split. 7/7 seems a bit more intuitive I think. That way you'd have:

4 Bays + 3 Lances = 7 "strength" port & starboard
7 firepower on the dorsal side
7 firepower up front
Then the standard 6 torpedoes.

This way it just looks pretty in terms of the numbers used and in case of criticals there's no rounding numbers.
TBH, I've been thinking about reducing the WB to 7 and 5 if it needs a slight nerf, but I think it's pretty balanced with what's out there so far.

As usual, thanks for the review!! Think I can now add it to the books as a successful and balanced homebrew :)