February 22, 2019, 01:30:09 AM

Author Topic: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (New Year's Update 2/10/2019)  (Read 90474 times)

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Offline Thinking Stone

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The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #330 on: April 06, 2018, 11:16:11 PM »
It's been pretty exciting to see your steady and innovative hand at work, Xca|iber, and I think BFG has benefited from it as much as the community has from your engagement (that is, quite a bit :P). Alas, times do change and things get busy; I've noticed that it's not only BFG that's on the wane, but even this way of communicating on specialised internet fora that seems to be heading out the door. It's good to hear that you're getting some space games in, though! I know with my own busyness that's always a challenge... along with the challenges of not having people to enjoy the game with.

I would be interested to see your adventures in X-Wingland, though: I have played a tiny bit but been curious about how it goes when you play lots of it! I do also wonder if the fleet-scale version compares with BFG :9

Welcome back from deployment, Green_Squad_Leader! Besides always reminding me of Star Wars B-wings, it's good to see someone with the resources and passion to keep tinkering with BFG meaningfully!

Offline atension

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #331 on: July 13, 2018, 07:03:34 PM »
Hoping there is still work happening on XR. Keen to play a campaign this year.

Offline Green_Squad_Leader

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #332 on: August 22, 2018, 09:17:54 AM »
Welcome back from deployment, Green_Squad_Leader! Besides always reminding me of Star Wars B-wings, it's good to see someone with the resources and passion to keep tinkering with BFG meaningfully!

Actually I don't get home until December, but thank you for the mention and thoughts.

I've actually been ruminating on a "BFG Modernized" rules set which would introduce a fair number of new mechanics and clean up some other things.  As I'm sure everyone would agree BFG is a game of extreme contrasts regarding it's complexity to simplicity ratio.  Aspects of the game which should be simple (ie: targeting enemy ships) are super complex while aspects which should be complex (ie: Taking damage, variation between weapon types, movement) are overly simple.  As a result we get a game which while fun has you wrestling with the mechanics most of the time.

I'd propose a set of changes to update the game to a fully modern one that would allow for a greater degree of variation between each ship in a fleet list, a smoother playing experience, and that would scale more cleanly than BFG does with it's "my mound of dice will erase any target no matter how durable" dynamic.

Once I have the concept written out to be intelligible I'll post it.  The positive thing is that most units in the game would be very easy to update and integrate into the new system I'm proposing.

Offline Green_Squad_Leader

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #333 on: August 22, 2018, 09:20:39 AM »
It appears that the link to the updated campaign rules is broken, so here's a new one:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wt57x3qk2eyw9yv/bfg%20-%20revised%20campaign%20rules%20ver%201.4.0.pdf?dl=0

Offline Thinking Stone

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The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #334 on: August 23, 2018, 12:49:59 AM »
Oops, my mistake on the deployment! All the best, nonetheless.

I’d be intrigued to see your proposals. For the most part, I don’t mind the mechanics already there (the firepower chart is a novel way of dealing with the firepower scaling issue, for example), but for me there are plenty of those small niggling things that just don’t seem fully optimised (e.g. FP chart maxing out at 20: why not use a fractional multiplier; frontal shields being tougher than rear shields; attack craft; squadroning; boarding actions; difference between escorts and capital ships; some special orders and how they interact with squadrons or what they represent).

The targeting complexity, though, I don’t see as much of a problem: I think that’s a reflection of BFG being primarily a game of manoeuvre, and the need to manoeuvre well is what keeps it interesting for me (you can play a great game on a bare board!). Critical damage could be a bit less random, but looking at other rulesets (Epic and others), I’ve found few good models of critical damage at all, let alone space ship critical damage. So I’m interested to see what you’ve come up with!

Offline Fr05ty

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #335 on: November 01, 2018, 06:02:20 PM »
Any reason why the Dark Eldar have no weapons of range 45cm? Think it'd be fitting on the Mortalis Grand Cruiser

Additionally, any opinion on adding the Tau (Missile Cruiser) and Eldar (Nebula and Ikaros class) ships from the Nemesis Book? How'd they look?

Might be worth revisiting this once Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 comes out with extra ships for the races that missed a proper roster

Offline DrDaniel5

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #336 on: November 06, 2018, 03:01:47 AM »
I have a question about the Activated Blackstone Fortresses combining their shots. As per the rules you need to have a novacannon template touching each of their stems to combine their power for the super shot.



This is incredibly ugly. and they can't fit without overlapping bases.

Having them have the edge of their base touch is much nicer looking and really does not make them more powerful, if anything it makes it easier to fly a capital ship into the middle to disrupt the shot.



I know Xca|iber has stepped away but does anyone see an issue to changing it to having the template centered between base edges? I'm probably one of 6 weirdos with more than one Blackstones too.

(also before anyone asks, the Blackstone on the left is on an omni stand from http://www.corseceng.com/omni-stand/ )

Offline Zelnik

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #337 on: December 05, 2018, 06:44:39 PM »
Sup my dudes!!

You guys have done an amazing job (though I wonder if there are too many ship options now..)

Any way I can help?

Offline Thinking Stone

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The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #338 on: December 23, 2018, 03:38:25 PM »
In the absence of the other, perhaps more enlightened, folks interested in BFG:XR, I’ll try to provide some sensible responses! I would have tried replying earlier except that the year got away from me too quickly!

@Fro5ty: For the Dark Eldar, I presume the lack of 45 cm weapons is historical and was originally part of their playstyle intentionally. Other Eldar also lacked 45 cm weapons in the earlier lists, for example. As I understand it, Xca|iber’s intent was to not substantially change lists (unless necessary), but to continue the efforts of things like BFG:R.

It might be an interesting question to ask in a new thread, to see if any of the real long-term veterans of BFG remember anything. Maybe you could try out 45 cm weapons on the grand cruiser and see how it goes?

For the Book of Nemesis ships (or any new ships, e.g. from the BFG Armada game): I think you could organise to play with them in your local scene without much trouble (I think they’re fairly well-balanced, from memory), but I think one phenomenon with BFG lists over the years has been bloating from both fan-made and official (or computer-game official) ship additions. New ships can be interesting and can freshen a list (and some have achieved more widespread adoption, like the Eldar Supernova), but the danger is diluting the feel and playstyle of factions. I think Xca|iber tried to be careful of that here. What will happen post-Xca|iber is another question, and could do with more discussion with the those who really know the ins and outs of BFG, I reckon!

One factor is that the video game(s) have different objectives and faction designs to the tabletop game, too. So, tabletop Chaos historically didn’t have (or really need) light cruisers, but the Armada game needed them for how fleet progression worked there.

To me, I think the fleets of BFG:XR are pretty-well fleshed out for what they represent, so I personally don’t think a whole lot is needed in new material (except maybe some bigger Dark Eldar ships).

@DrDaniel5: With Xca|iber perhaps indefinitely gone, I’d suggest you go ahead and try the larger spacing (which I presume you have anyways)—I can see some merit in the original close spacing, but I think your solution is much more sensible practically. The bigger gap to be flown through in particular seems to match the background in any case.

If it turns out to be a lot better, then you could leave a note back here for all those interested, and it might one day get into BFG:XR or into some successor project.

Also, nice omni-stand (and pair of Blackstones, for that matter)! I’ve read good things about them.

@Zelnik:
Hail, fellow dude! They have indeed done a marvellous job! I actually don’t mind the ship options that much, because I think they generally fit the themes of lists well, and, to me at least, it’s neater to have a few chassis with different loadouts.

As for helping: I think any interest would be keenly appreciated! Though Xca|iber is on a long hiatus and Green_Squad_Leader is presumably only just back from deployment, so the more active peeps are a bit quiet at the moment. I think generally playing with BFG:XR and talking about it are useful any time, but there are plenty of discussions about some of the trickier things Xca|iber decided on that might be particularly interesting to test.

Offline Draccan

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #339 on: December 30, 2018, 12:48:02 PM »

Hi

I am about to return to BFG after a decade long hiatus and stumbled over this.
Can someone explain to me in broad strokes the differences between classic BFG and BFG:XR?

Also are there pros and cons to play the main rules, armada and 2010 vs. this revised edition.

Before jumping in, I would love to hear what people think.

With the original guy out, has it been completed to a workable state or are there (many) missing components and problems?

Has anyone considered picking up the mantle and continue this?

Sincerely
D.
I really would love to buy some Warmaster Kislev, Araby, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Chaos demons ...

Offline Draccan

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #340 on: December 30, 2018, 01:24:34 PM »
Anyone who has a functioning link to the campaign and scenarios rules. Original post is removed and the other link in the thread is not working either.
I really would love to buy some Warmaster Kislev, Araby, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Chaos demons ...

Offline Bessemer

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #341 on: December 30, 2018, 11:58:20 PM »
@Draccan

The only real downside of using 2010 or BFG:XR is the reading up in order to use them. Both help clarify rules and fix ships/lists, with BFG:XR going way more in depth. To what extent I'm not too sure, as whilst I had a hand in the previous version of Revised (mostly on the 'Nids) I had no involvement with XR. That being said, it seems comprehensive enough.

As Thinking Stone says above, the XR project is virtually complete, minus some proof-reading and the Scenarios doc, which was posted but has since gone down. Hopefully the holder will post again in the near future.

I would happily use XR in it's current state, as the vessels and rule included are well balanced in relation to the original or even 2010. The only imbalanced thing I can recall of the top of my head would be the Proteus Hiveship...We put no limits onto what game size it could be used in in and it will dominate in any game below 2000, a flaw carried into XR from the original Revised

Hope that paints a quick impression and helps in your choice!
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline Draccan

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #342 on: December 31, 2018, 12:12:02 AM »

@bessemer

Thanks for that. I was expecting at least a few rules changes and not just clarifications and compiling. I will have to decide if I will use my old rulebooks incl. Armada and print 2010 update with it or go with BFG:XR and send the whole thing to a printshop (expensive locally).

I will hold out and see if a BFG:XR player can share the missing file. If not I will probably skip this edition.

Thanks again.
I really would love to buy some Warmaster Kislev, Araby, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Chaos demons ...

Offline Bessemer

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Re: The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #343 on: December 31, 2018, 12:17:30 AM »
I suppose I should have mentioned the Eldar rules are much different to the Original, Made by members of these forums. Far more fair and playable!
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline Thinking Stone

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The BFG: Expanded Revised Rules Thread (MAJOR Update 04/12/2017)
« Reply #344 on: December 31, 2018, 12:42:42 AM »
As @Bessemer says, I too think BFG:XR is well-balanced compared with previous iterations, and very complete, except perhaps for the final balancing on the Tyranids (I think Xca|iber got the Orks sorted before the end). I think restricting the Proteus is probably the easiest fix there (though there’s some discussion above).

For the timeline of BFG ‘editions’, this reply from @Horizon and the thread he linked to are useful if you haven’t seen them yet:

http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=8631.0

Lots of revision efforts have happened over the years, both when GW still actively maintained the game, and when that task fell to the various BFG communities. BFG:R was one of those attempts that aimed to really engage the community in improving and polishing the BFG Armada + FAQ2010 rules (along with some additions over the years from particularly excellent community rules).

BFG:XR uses BFG:R as a base, and aimed to complete it (and you can read about Xca|iber’s strategies in this thread, of course). It clarifies lots of small things and changes some of the odd things that didn’t really make sense, and compiles everything (except the unfinished campaign rules) into an edition all with one date (instead of bits and pieces of things with different levels of revision). BFG:XR consequently makes many fleet lists more complete. In my humble opinion, BFG:XR is the best complete revision of BFG to date.

So, if you’d like to use the last, most ‘official’ GW production, BFG + Armada + FAQ2010 is the one to use, and the most widely accepted (having said that, there’s always a little controversy).

However, as is typical of Games Workshop, those may not be the most well-constructed version of the rules; BFG:XR is probably the best at that, that I know of. There are not significant enough core rule changes between the two for most people to really notice, though, except that the community-created Eldar Move-Move-Shoot rules are included in BFG:XR rather than the original Move-Shoot-Move rules (the opinion of many on these forums, at least, is that the ‘MMS’ rules work better). Hopefully someone has the campaign rules, but you could easily use the original BFG campaign rules with BFG:XR.

Of course, there’s nothing stopping you from trying out one combination of rules, and then deciding as a group to use something from another revision—an example might be that the original BFG Retribution and Emperor class battleship weapons stats/points values are a bit dodgy; or maybe you like the BFG:XR Orks but prefer the original MSM Eldar. And it’s totally fine to want to stick with the most ‘official’ rules out there, but the BFG community these days has no official support and is generally just local groups, so there’s perhaps less reason to other than personal preference.

Hopefully our thoughts have been helpful! :D

Edit: As to someone picking up the mantle, the only person who’s really posted on here about doing something like that is Green_Squad_Leader—though he was mentioning creating a new revision (see above).

I think BFG:XR (except for the aforementioned tweaks to Tyranids, and the missing campaign rules) is complete as it is. There will almost certainly be small things picked up on and suggested fixes from the community, but they’d just be small notes, I think. People are also always creating new fan ship designs and scenarios, which are easy to incorporate into games. Someone might try getting in touch with Xca|iber for the source document files, but not having those is an obstacle to further work on BFG:XR.

For the future of revisions overall, I personally reckon the most fruitful things to do would be getting BFG:XR more widely used, and working on more substantial revisions to the core BFG rules, like GSL is suggesting—the rules engine is pretty excellent, but it’d be interesting to see some modern rules innovations incorporated.

There is also the spectre of Games Workshop releasing a new Horus Heresy ‘BFG’ game, like they’re re-released Adeptus Titanicus—hopefully it’ll happen, hopefully it’ll be well-designed! But until we see it, it throws a lot of uncertainty out there for people wanting to revise BFG. The new version of the computerised BFG Armada could be interesting, too, though I think the BFG community has seen little to incorporate back into the tabletop game (except I reckon the long-range bombs would be a useful thing to implement).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 01:14:03 AM by Thinking Stone »