January 24, 2019, 09:50:04 AM

Author Topic: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development  (Read 21002 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Fr05ty

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39

Offline Zelnik

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 759
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2018, 03:24:32 PM »
Hey folks, long time no see.


So if you guy's don't remember me, I was one of the 2010 faq folks. I have been peeking at what you guys are making here and I have a few questions.

When adding new ships, what are you looking to provide that isn't already provided by another ship (Do we need another carrier when Chaos has some of the best already? Do we need another grand cruiser when Chaos happens to have the best grand cruiser in the game?)

Another thing to consider is are you adding ships to patch up areas they were deliberately left open to provide balance opportunities, and to make other fleets more unique (I was never a fan of chaos light cruisers, and preferred that to remain an Imperial phenomena).

Are there things we could be doing with established rules to make the game more interesting instead of adding new content? (Perhaps a fleet option for traitorous Imperial only ships with a few chaos-y rules, or a chaos fleet that has a select few imperial cruisers in place of select chaos cruisers)

One thing we should seriously consider is that BFG will likely return, and how we can contact GW to try and have a hand in it's rules... the last thing we want is BFG Age of Sigmar.


I am going to go over the ships in the start of this thread with a fine toothed comb and see what I think, and provide some comments here in a bit.


Offline Zelnik

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 759
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2018, 03:44:52 PM »
Comments in bold.


Blasphemer Class Fast Battleship- 300
Hits: 8
Speed: 30 cm
Turns: 45*
Sheilds: 2
Armour: 5+
Turrets:  4
Weapons
Port Weap Battery- R: 45cm  S: 10 Arc: L
Port Weap Battery- R: 60cm  S: 6 Arc: L
Stbd Weap Battery-  R: 45cm S: 10 Arc: R
Stbd Weap Battery- R: 60cm  S: 6 Arc: L
Dorsal Lance Battery- R: 60cm S: 4 Arc: L/F/R
Special Rules: 5D6 AAF. When the ships suffers a critical hit, roll an additional d6. On a 5+, an additional Fire critical damage result is applied to the original critical hit. Roll +1D6 for Plasma Drive Overload Catastrophic Damage results. Even though the Blasphemer has less than 3 shields and 10 hits, it MUST be mounted on a large (60mm) flying base, as it still has the presence of a Battleship, just none of the staying power.

My biggest issue with this ship is that chaos doesn't need fast battleships. All of their battleships are 'fast' with a cruiser speed Desolator, and a gun-battleship speed Despoiler. The general purpose of chaos battleships is long range firepower, access to torpedos on a faster then average hull, for relatively cheap points for their firepower (the Desolator being one of the cheapest battleships in the game).  This just appears to me to be an attempt to put battleship weapons on a slaughter. The need for a fast battleship makes far more sense in the imperial navy, since their battleships are bigger gunnery platforms and typically slower.

Goliath Class Grand Cruiser- 250 (IMPERIAL NAVY/CHAOS)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 3
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 3
Weapons:
Port LB- Swiftdeaths: 30cm Doomfires: 20cm Dreadclaws: 30cm S: 3 Arc:-
Stbd LB- Swiftdeaths: 30cm Doomfires: 20cm Dreadclaws: 30cm S: 3 Arc:-
Port Lances- R: 60cm S:2 Arc: L
Stbd Lances- R: 60cm S: 2 Arc: R
Special Rules:  May take ABs for +5 pts.

This ship is, on the chaos side, completely rendered superfluous by the styx. There simply is no need for it on a balance scale. On the imperial side, it is rendered superfluous by the Exorcist. There is too much crossover and bleed, and ultimately, we should not have an option for everything in this game.

Annihilator Class Grand Cruiser- 295 (IMPERIAL NAVY/CHAOS)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 3
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 3
Weapons:
Port LB- Swiftdeaths: 30cm Doomfires: 20cm Dreadclaws: 30cm S: 5 Arc:-
Stbd LB- Swiftdeaths: 30cm Doomfires: 20cm Dreadclaws: 30cm S: 5 Arc:-
Special Rules:
This is even worse then the one above. This vessel instead renders the alternatives obsolete, and gives chaos and imperial factions too great of a strike craft presence when their balance focus lays elsewhere. why take any other carrier then this? It's the same points as a styx, cheaper then an emperor, and cheaper then two Dominators and Devistations.

Vindictive Class Grand Cruiser- 330 (SPACE MARINE OR CHAOS FLEETS)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Shields:  3
Armour: 6+
Turrets:  3
Weapons
Port LBs- Thunderhawks- Speed: 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Stbd LBs- Thunderhawks- Speed: 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Dorsal Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Thunderhawks- Speed 20cm S: 2 squadrons Arc: -
Under Prow Plasma Destructor- R: 15cm S:10 Arc: F
Special Rules:  Chaos Space Marine Crew.
Plasma Destructor: Always hit on a 5+. Always inflicts critical hits on a 5+.

Adding in cruisers bigger then a light cruiser to space marine fleets is dicey, it's simply not part of their balance layout and the Blackship was the compromise. The Plasma Destructor is way over the top, and doesn't say anything about if it applies to the gunnery table. I know you want more bombardment cannons in a space marine list, but keeping their ships restricted to light cruisers and battle barges is established both in the lore and in the balance of the game. 

Charybdis Class Grand Cruiser- 295 (Use Grim Dark Bits Heresy Era BB. Based off the Nicor in IA vol 10)
Hits: 10
Speed: 20 cm
Turns: 45*
Shields:  3
Armour: 6+
Turrets:  3
Weapons
Port Weap Batteries- R: 45cm S: 8 Arc: L
Stbd Weap Batteries- R: 45cm S: 8 Arc: R
Prow Bombardment Cannons- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Prow Launch Bays- Swiftdeaths: 30cm Doomfires: 20cm Dreadclaws: 30cm S: 4 Arc:-
Under Prow Plasma Destructor- R: 15cm S:10 Arc: F
Special Rules:  You may take a CSM crew for +35 points.
Plasma Destructor: Always hit on a 5+. Always inflicts critical hits on a 5+.

Chaos, unless they are Chaos space marines -specifically- should never have bombardment cannons, even then I would suggest against giving Chaos another special gimmick.


Kharnath Class Grand Cruiser- 320
Hits: 10
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 45*
Shields:  3
Armour: 5+
Turrets:  3
Weapons
Prow Boarding Torpedoes- Speed: 35cm S: 6 Arc: F
Port Launch Bays- Dreadclaws: 35cm S: 5 Arc:  -
Stbd Launch Bays- Dreadclaws: 35cm S: 5 Arc:  -
Prow Talons- R: 15 S: 2 Arc: F
Special Rules:  5d6 AAF
Blood for the Blood God:  MoK and CSM crew. May only be taken in Bezerker fleets or fleets where at least of the ships (including Kharnath GC) have the MoK. May not be included in fleets where any ship has the MoT.
Talons of Khorne: Prow mounted Talons are fired like WB with a Left Col Shift. They ignore shields. If you successfully hit a vessel, instead of inflicting damage all boarding actions conducted by AC from the Kharnath receive a +1 bonus.
Boosted Craft- AC from the Kharnath are boosted from the Kharnath, adding +5 to speed, already included above.
I actually really like this ship. It's very fluffy and very Khorny. A ship designed for boarders, by boarders, with the genuine taste of "Screw guns I wanna hit it with my axe" mentality. I don't think the assault craft need the boost to speed though.


Hellfire Class Heavy Cruiser (CH)-210
Hits: 8
Speed: 20cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 2
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 2
Weapons:
Port WB- R: 45cm S: 6 Arc: L
Stbd WB- R: 45cm S: 6 Arc: R
Port Lance Battery- R: 45cm S: 2 Arc: L
Stbd Lance Battery - R: 45cm S: 2 Arc: R
Prow WB- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R
Dorsal Lance Battery- R: 60 S: 1 Arc: L/F/R
Special Rules: When AAF, the ship may not fire its lance batteries.

This is a heavy cruiser design based on either the slaughter or the alternative murder. It's really not necessary because we have the hades, and the slaughter is doing just fine without a heavy cruiser variant. Not all designs need a heavy or battle cruiser variant.

Enticer Class Light Cruiser- 130
Hits: 6
Speed: 25cm
Turns: 90*
Shields: 1
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 2
Weapons:
Port WB- R: 45cm S: 4 Arc: L
Stbd WB- R: 45cm S: 4 Arc: R
Prow WB- R: 45cm S: 8 Arc: L/F/R
Notes: 5d6 AAF. May only be used in Pleasure Fleets of Slaneesh or fleets where over of the vessels have the MoS. May not be taken in fleets where a vessel has the MoN.

I like fluffy ships, but I don't really see why this needs to exist when for just 35 more points I can take a Slaughter, which is faster, tougher and WAY more shooty. One slaughter can easily take on two of these and pound them into the dirt, when light cruisers are really meant to be more then the sum of their parts. This is beyond my normal disdain for chaos light cruisers because there just isn't a need for them when you have the Slaughter.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:47:21 PM by Zelnik »

Offline kerros

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • Loc: Allentown, PA
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #93 on: December 29, 2018, 01:51:52 PM »
Hello all,

       I've been going through the various ASC posts and more recent files (I have the original) and have not come across my favorite creation. Was wondering if any of you have ever seen/come up with yourself something like this:

Traitorous Cruiser- 180 (CHAOS)

Hits: 8
Speed: 25cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 2
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 2
Weapons:
Port Lances- R: 45cm S: 3 Arc: L
Stbd Lances- R: 45cm S: 3 Arc: R
Prow Weap Battery- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R

What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 02:01:37 AM by kerros »

Offline Bessemer

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 333
    • Loc: UK
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2018, 02:09:09 AM »
Hello all,

       I've been going through the various ASC posts and more recent files (I have the original) and have not come across my favorite creation. Was wondering if any of you have ever seen/come up with yourself something like this:

Traitorous Cruiser- 180 (CHAOS)

Hits: 8
Speed: 25cm
Turns: 45*
Shields: 2
Armour: 5+
Turrets: 2
Weapons:
Port Lances- R: 45cm S: 3 Arc: L
Stbd Lances- R: 45cm S: 3 Arc: R
Prow Weap Battery- R: 30cm S: 6 Arc: L/F/R

What do you think?

Basically a Cruiser version of the Acheron? Seems OK, The Hades is the Murder with topside turrets after all, the reverse also works;)

shouldn't the prow Wb's be 60cm, though? At 30cm you're probably looking at about 170 if I have to pull a number from my posterior (been away from BFG for a looong time!).
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline Bessemer

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 333
    • Loc: UK
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2018, 02:16:11 AM »
@zelnik

Nice to see the High Admiralty still exist! And thank you for your work on 2010, even if GW didn't feel the same.

as you have probably guessed, the ASC is essentially a compilation of whatever people want to chuck out. Most of the more reasonable designs ended up in the Expanded revised Fan edition here on the boards (forgive if you are aware of this, been away for some time...).

 Edit: Not meaning to sound negative about the ASC's content, but a lot of fan creations do step on the toes of official ships or go out of theme for the faction in question. I'm just as guilty, all of mine being consigned to oblivion long ago :D
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 02:22:22 AM by Bessemer »
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline kerros

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • Loc: Allentown, PA
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2018, 02:39:17 AM »
Yes, you are correct. It is a cheaper Acheron in cruiser form. That's kinda what I was going for. Also think of it as a "Chaos-y" version of the Imperial Gothic. Also, you are half correct about the price. I must have miscalculated somewhere (almost a decade ago when I first came up with this design lol) along the way cuz running the numbers again it's actually 160 pts. Super cheap! I actually wanted the prow weapons batteries to be short range as I didn't want this to be a cheap cruiser that could sit back and fire at range. The 30cm WB forces you to choose between sitting back or getting in the fight and using your full complement of weapons.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 03:03:25 AM by kerros »

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3849
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #97 on: December 31, 2018, 05:39:38 PM »
@zelnik

Nice to see the High Admiralty still exist! And thank you for your work on 2010, even if GW didn't feel the same.

Nah, the HA is into hibernation only to be awoken when the eye of terror spills out GW heresies.
Only a few rare mails from Ray, Nate and Bob have been done.
I posted the few FAQ2010 clarifications in the rules sub forum.

Offline Zelnik

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 759
Re: ASC 2.0 Chaos Development
« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2019, 04:53:03 PM »
@zelnik

Nice to see the High Admiralty still exist! And thank you for your work on 2010, even if GW didn't feel the same.

as you have probably guessed, the ASC is essentially a compilation of whatever people want to chuck out. Most of the more reasonable designs ended up in the Expanded revised Fan edition here on the boards (forgive if you are aware of this, been away for some time...).

 Edit: Not meaning to sound negative about the ASC's content, but a lot of fan creations do step on the toes of official ships or go out of theme for the faction in question. I'm just as guilty, all of mine being consigned to oblivion long ago :D


I managed to congeal out of my primordial ooze a while ago after discovering Shapeways and a few really talented 3d printers that have begun making fantastic remakes of the ships of the game.


I do apologize for being a wet blanket, but I like ships that actually wear their own shoes instead of stealing the shoes of someone else. It's why I loved the Governor Grand Cruiser, which very much was it's own ship.


I will try to make a Chaos Cruiser, something that I think people have forgotten and probably a better place for chaos light cruisers.


Blacktooth Class Demon Ship.

Points: 150

Movement: 35cm
Turn: 45*
Hits:6
Shields:2
Turrets:1
Armor:6+

Weapons:
Prow: Demonic Maw
Port Reality Rift
Starboard Reality Rift

Special Rules

Demonic Maw: When this ship rams, increase the dice rolled for damage against enemy vessels by 4.  When boarding, The target ship suffers a critical hit before any boarding action is resolved.

Mark of Chaos: This vessel must take any one mark of chaos for free.

Demonic Infestation: For 25 points the ship may be filled with howling hoardes of demons, giving it a +1 to it's boarding actions and a +1 to all hit-and-run attack rolls.

Reality Rifts: When an enemy vessel fires upon this ship in the port or starboard facing with any weapon that functions like a lance or battery (this includes bombardment cannons, lightning arcs, particle whips, ect), resolve an immediate attack against the firing vessel with the same weapon at half the original firepower strength to a minimum of 1.