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Author Topic: Ogre Kingdoms List  (Read 6333 times)

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Offline Stormwind

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Ogre Kingdoms List
« on: February 04, 2014, 04:40:00 PM »
Hello all!

Just a quick question - do the people who run an Ogres army use the list in the army app or do they use fan rules?  The app suggests that Leadbelchers have a range of both 15cm and 30cm and propose quite complicated rules for their firing, along with a rule for them hurting themselves which is rather unclear.

I'm really hoping that for a break from Epic proxies, Evil and Chaos comes back and adds some more to his budding Ogres range - I'm planning to get some of his cannoneers but wondered what rules people used for Ogres as an army.
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Offline Dave

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 04:51:33 PM »
The Ogre Kingdoms list that's up there is straight out of the 09 compendium, as far as I know that's the only one around. On the 30cm, that's just a typo on my part. I'll fix it.

I admit I don't see why you'd want to fire at a charging enemy. Any hits you take can't be saved (-1 to armor on a 6+ is no save at all) and they'll count against you in combat. For 110 points I don't think they're worth it. Maybe the shooting could work more like DE Crossbowmen with a -1 to save?

Other things that struck me as odd were 110 point ogres (they're normally 105) and 145 point Iron Guts (Chaos Warriors are identical and cost 150).

Offline Stormwind

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 05:21:26 PM »
But do you take the hit if you roll a 1 on a D3, or if you roll a 1 on the shooting attacks on the enemy?

The Iron Guts might have that lower cost because they have the penalty that they MUST charge human targets (Ogre hunger) as an army rule.
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Offline Dave

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 05:58:05 PM »
That rule's not army-wide, as far as I can tell. It only applies to Bull Ogres.

Ah, I see your point now on the D3s.

Quote
Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. Roll D3 for every stand separately to determine how many shots they get to shoot. When shooting, any ‘1’ automatically hits the Leadbelchers themselves. They are not driven back by those hits but roll a D6 for every wound. On a ‘6’ they are confused. Units hit by Leadbelchers get a -1 penalty for their armour rolls. When shooting at charging units every Leadbelcher stand has only D3-1 shots. Any ‘1’ on initial D3 roll automatically causes 1 hit on the Leadbelchers unit. Hits taken while shooting at chargers do not require roll for confusion but count as having been struck in the first round of combat.

The shooting part seems to imply they're hit when they roll a 1 when rolling to hit, not when rolling the D3. However, when shooting at chargers it seems to imply you take the hit when you roll a 1 on the D3. If both were "take a hit when you roll a 1 when rolling to hit" that make's them a little better.

Bel, how are we supposed to be playing this?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 06:07:00 PM by Dave »

Offline Aldhick

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 09:45:12 PM »
Other things that struck me as odd were 110 point ogres (they're normally 105)

This was mentioned already somewhere else - IIRC the extra 5 pts are there because there is no cap in number of units, unlike in other armies, where number of ogre units is limited
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Offline Bel

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2014, 08:55:07 AM »
Looks like it is the time to write some rewording.

Initial text
Quote
2. Leadbelchers. Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. Roll D3 for every stand separately to determine how many shots they get to shoot. When shooting, any ‘1’ automatically hits the Leadbelchers themselves. They are not driven back by those
hits but roll a D6 for every wound. On a ‘6’ they are confused. Units hit by Leadbelchers get a -1 penalty for their armour rolls. When shooting at charging units every Leadbelcher stand has only D3-1 shots. Any ‘1’ on initial D3 roll automatically causes 1 hit on the Leadbelchers unit. Hits taken while shooting at
chargers do not require roll for confusion but count as having been struck in the first round of combat.


1-st re-wording
Quote
2. Leadbelchers. Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. Roll D3 for every stand separately to determine how many shots they get to shoot. When shooting, any ‘1’ on ‘to hit’ rolls automatically hits the Leadbelchers themselves. Enemies are not driven back by those hits but have roll a D6 for every wound inflicted. On a ‘6’ they are confused. Units hit by Leadbelchers' shots get a -1 penalty for their armour rolls.
When shooting at chargers every Leadbelcher stand has only D3-1 shots. Any ‘1’ on initial D3 roll automatically causes 1 hit on the Leadbelchers unit. While shooting at chargers the hits taken by both sides do not require roll for confusion but count as having been struck in the first round of combat.

2-nd re-wording
Quote
2. Leadbelchers. Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. Roll D3 for every stand separately to determine how many shots they get to shoot. When shooting, any ‘1’ on ‘to hit’ rolls automatically hits the Leadbelchers themselves. Enemies are not driven back by those hits but have roll a D6 for every wound inflicted. On a ‘6’ they are confused. Units hit by Leadbelchers' shots get a -1 penalty for their armour rolls.
When shooting at chargers the hits taken by both sides do not require roll for confusion but count as having been struck in the first round of combat.

I like the last one bkz its simplicity. As I noticed in many battles with and against Ogres the damage inflicted by Leadbelchers when shooting at enemy or themselves is not mostly critical.

Offline Dave

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2014, 01:52:55 PM »
I like the second block as well, however you don' need the second paragraph as that's already addressed in the rules (second to last paragraph of Shooting at Charging Enemy):

Quote
Hits on charging units don't cause drive backs.

Also, I'd argue you don't need the part about rolling the D3 as that's already in the stat line of the army selector. I think it can be stripped down to this:

Quote
Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. When rolling to hit, any dice roll of a 1 hits the Leadbelchers themselves. Units are not driven back by these hits, but dice should still be rolled as normal to see if the unit becomes confused. Additionally, units hit by these shots count their Armour value as one worse (-1) than normal.

Also, Bel, what was the reasoning for the point discrepancies on the Ogres and Ironguts?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 01:54:30 PM by Dave »

Offline Bel

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 02:57:34 PM »
I like the second block as well, however you don' need the second paragraph as that's already addressed in the rules (second to last paragraph of Shooting at Charging Enemy):

Quote
Hits on charging units don't cause drive backs.

Ahhh, formally speaking the 'drive back' and 'confusion' are a bit different things. So I would specify to avoid 'confusion' variant reading.

Quote
Also, I'd argue you don't need the part about rolling the D3 as that's already in the stat line of the army selector. I think it can be stripped down to this:

Quote
Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. When rolling to hit, any dice roll of a 1 hits the Leadbelchers themselves. Units are not driven back by these hits, but dice should still be rolled as normal to see if the unit becomes confused. Additionally, units hit by these shots count their Armour value as one worse (-1) than normal.

Also, Bel, what was the reasoning for the point discrepancies on the Ogres and Ironguts?

 Aldhick is absolutely right. The unit's cost highly depends of unit's availability in the army ie 'Min/max' limits.
Regarding your wording - just complete it  and the final result will be nice (IMHO).

Offline Dave

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 03:14:59 PM »
Ahhh, formally speaking the 'drive back' and 'confusion' are a bit different things. So I would specify to avoid 'confusion' variant reading.

But confusion stems from drive back rolls where shooting's concerned. If you don't roll drive backs for hits on chargers how could they get confused? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just pointing out the second paragraph confused me when I read it.

Quote
Aldhick is absolutely right. The unit's cost highly depends of unit's availability in the army ie 'Min/max' limits.

Gotcha, just not sure I agree with it. DoW Knights should be cheaper based on that line of thought, as they're -/2 as opposed to -/- in the Empire list.

What about the Iron Guts being 5 points cheaper than Chaos Knights?

Offline Bel

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 06:47:26 AM »
Quote

But confusion stems from drive back rolls where shooting's concerned. If you don't roll drive backs for hits on chargers how could they get confused? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm just pointing out the second paragraph confused me when I read it.

IIRC there are some circumstances when chargers may become confused without drive back - Warp Lighting cannon for example.

Quote
Quote
Aldhick is absolutely right. The unit's cost highly depends of unit's availability in the army ie 'Min/max' limits.

Gotcha, just not sure I agree with it. DoW Knights should be cheaper based on that line of thought, as they're -/2 as opposed to -/- in the Empire list.

What about the Iron Guts being 5 points cheaper than Chaos Knights?

Empire list is not a subject of logic (like some other official lists) with its Holy Cannonball Knightly Order.
Ironguts are now 145 and -/2. This is lesser than unlimited Chaos Warriors (I think u mean them).
 


Final wording
Quote
2.  Leadbelchers. Leadbelchers cannons have a range of 15cm. Roll D3 for every stand separately to determine how many shots they get to shoot. When rolling to hit, any dice roll of a 1 hits the Leadbelchers themselves. Leadbelchers are not driven back by these hits, but dice should still be rolled as normal to see if the unit becomes confused (except when shooting at chargers). Additionally, any units hit by Leadbelchers' shots count their Armour value as one worse (-1) than normal. When shooting at chargers the hits taken by both sides count as having been struck in the first round of combat.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 07:03:01 AM by Bel »

Offline Stormwind

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2014, 08:57:40 PM »

Is there any desire to add the units that were created by games workshop for the latest Ogre Kingdoms book?
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Offline Dave

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2014, 12:20:57 AM »
I'd rather it be a new list than try to cram it in to this one. Playing follow the leader with Warhammer isn't good for WM.

Offline Aldhick

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 12:44:33 PM »
One thing I love on WM is, that the army lists come from the times when WH armies used to have their character that was kept for quite long time. Since 8th edition, in order to increase sales, GW has been following the strategy "let's put monster toy-like stuff in every army, so the 14 years old kids (who are now GW's declared main focus group) wanna buy our stuff".  It's my secret wish not to see any of this funny stuff (e.g. monster chickens in always infantry and cavalry and artillery heavy Empire, flying chariots etc.) spoiling the good old WH world preserved in WM.
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Offline Stormwind

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 01:36:24 PM »
True - there are some hideous hideous additions. The steampunk dwarves that have appeared absolutely make me shake my head.  The Empire laser beam wagon makes me grit my teeth.  But I think the Thundertusk and Gnoblar scrap launcher would be acceptable additions.
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Offline honestmistake

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Re: Ogre Kingdoms List
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2014, 10:58:31 PM »
One thing i want to trial in my Ogre army is swapping out the Gorgers for Ogre Pikemen* (basic ogres stats but based as DoW Pike and following those rules) I think it would make a nice reflection of the ogres being on the fringe of humanity and unsure whether to eat it or copy it.


* this has absolutely no connection to my having enough models with leveled spears to build 2 full units left over from my proxy figures :)