October 18, 2019, 01:23:43 PM

Author Topic: Tyranid spore shields clarification  (Read 2949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Geep

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 897
Tyranid spore shields clarification
« on: May 08, 2013, 01:47:39 PM »
I've been trying to get my head around the Tyranid rules, and my usual BFG opponent and I came to a disagreement on how Tyranid spore shields work in regards to blast marker placement due to enemy contact. Various FAQs haven't really clarified this, and some are contradictory.

Initially we both agreed on the following:

A blast marker is placed in contact with both the tyranid and enemy vessel if the enemy moves into contact with the tyranid ship. The enemy ship can continue to move and so avoid the blast marker, but the Tyranid ship keeps the blast marker in contact (so is down a shield when the enemy shoots).

I argued that the blast marker placement also happens when the Tyranid vessel moves into contact with an opponent. Vague wording regarding boarding actions supported this idea.

What's not stated anywhere is: Does a blast marker get placed if the Tyranid vessel moves into contact with an enemy, and then keeps moving? If yes, where is the blast marker placed? Does it take down an enemy shield in the same way an enemy can take down the tyranid shields by moving through them?

All references to marker placement, other than the case where tyranids stay in base to base contact with an opponent, only talk about placing blast markers when the enemy is the one who moves.

Can someone please state clearly exactly how blast marker placement happens here, and the impact it will have?
If it's not too much to ask, please give references so that I can help convince my friend if any of it disagrees with his point of view.


Edit: a new question with Tyranids- does the automatic hit from feeder tendrils (a roll of 4+ on their table) ignore shields? Hit and Run attacks do, but nothing says the hit does.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 02:10:05 PM by Geep »

Offline harec

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 04:00:32 PM »
Any time an enemy  ship contact a. Tyranid vessel, no matter who moves you place a blast marker in the contact place. Is as simple as that. After that the ship that is moving can continue its movement.
The only limitation is that you cannot place more than one blast marker in a ship.
Wicth means if 2 eney ships toucht a tyanid vessel you just put one blast marker.
If 2 tyranid ships touch an enemy ship you just put one.
Actually I didn't realice the enemy could use that in his favour. This rule is basicaly made to help the tyranids in boarding actions.
I colaborate with a spanish blog called profanus40k.
http://profanus40k.blogspot.com.es/

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »
Ya the quick and dirty on that is that you always place a BM touching both bases when they make contact. So you can strip one shield from each enemy by moving. If the enemy is moving through your nids they will only count as having their shields stripped if they are in base contact at the end of their move. They still receive -5cm speed and will take a hit on 6+ if they have no shields tho.

The auto hit for 4+ ignores shields, it is after all just a result of a massive amount of nids making it onto the ship along the feeder tenticle, just like the hit and runs.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Geep

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 897
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 02:03:46 AM »
That sounds like a good ruling to me- both with the blast markers and the feeder tendrils.

Is there any clear support for that though? ie. FAQs, erratas, etc? Right now, rules as written are all about the enemy being the actively moving party, making this more of a negative for tyranids than a positive.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 02:59:28 AM »
If an enemy ship gets in base contact with
a Tyranid vessel it will suffer spore impacts
, a
blast marker is placed in contact with the two
ships’ bases before any other effects are
calculated (effectively knocking down one spore
shield on the Tyranid ship.) Unshielded vessels
(including those only protected by holofields)
suffer an automatic hit instead (ie, don’t roll a
dice), the spore automatically causes one hit
(with the normal chance of critical damage).

PG 85 Armada. Simply stated, anytime a ship comes into base contact it suffers a spore impact (BM).

Spore impacts from moving in base contact with
Tyranid vessels effect enemy ship movement,
meaning enemy vessels lose -5cm speed and ships
with zero shields (such as Eldar and ships with
Shields Collapsed critical damage) have to roll a D6
against receiving damage on a 6. However, this test
(if required) only needs to be done once per
movement phase, regardless of how many Tyranid
ships make base contact. The ship only counts as
having blast markers in base contact if it ends its
movement in base contact with a Tyranid vessel.

FAQ2010 PG 29 This covers when an enemy moves into contact with a Tyranid ship in more detail.

Feeders could probably use a notation that they ignore shields, currently they go off the assumption that if they didnt they would be pretty worthless :P.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Geep

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 897
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 10:46:30 AM »
I've got that FAQ, but the problem with it (and all references to tyranid spore impacts) is the part you underlined- "If an enemy ship gets in base contact with a Tyranid vessel it will suffer spore impacts..."
That clearly relates to the enemy moving, leaving what happens when the Tyranids move open to interpretation.
Only boarding rules imply that a blast marker should be placed in base contact if the tyranids move into base to base and conduct a boarding action.

If the rules as intended are that a marker is placed whenever there is base to base contact involving a tyranid ship with spores, and that the placing of this marker will slow but not stop movement, that is fine. If only a single marker per turn is placed regardless of how many ships from either side are involved that's also fine. That's not what the words say though.

The same applies for the Feeder Tendril hits- why does it not say that it ignores shields, when Massive Claws specifically state that they do?

I should mention part of the reason why this disagreement came up is because my friend is a translator, and is very used to looking into the minutae of words to dissect the intention as cleanly as possible. In this case, the words are on his side- but I don't believe it to be the intention of the rules. I should also mention that my friend is not a power-gaming jerk looking to abuse rules- it's a valid point that these rules are currently unclear and the intended rules may not be favourable to the 'nids.

Is there a better written FAQ that states things more clearly? Internet forum consensus helps, but something more 'official' would be better.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 01:13:43 PM »
To be fair the part I underlined should be perfectly clear. If a Tyranid ship moves into base contact with an enemy ship the enemy ship will have gotten into base contact with a Tyranid ship and suffers spore impacts. It would be quite different if the rules said "If an enemy ship moves into base contact with a Tyranid vessel it will suffer spore impacts" but thats not the case.

Once again on the feeders its assumed that the point of damage on a 4,5, or 6 would bypass shields because a 1,2, or 3 would. If it was otherwise this weapon would never work outside of a ship with (0) shields.

Iirc there is a Nid tactics article that gw putout that goes over some of this a bit more, check in the BFG mags (look under the rules section stickies here) although it may have been Fanatic...
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Geep

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 897
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 01:40:41 PM »
Thanks- I've got the Fanatic Tyranid Tactics article- It's what convinced me to give them a go

I agree that "If an enemy ship gets in base contact with a Tyranid vessel it will suffer spore impacts..." can be read as working when the tyranid ship is the aggressor (It's actually the first argument I made to my friend), but the phrasing clearly indicates that it is the enemy ship being the active party ('gets' being a verb here making 'the enemy ship' the active noun).

This shouldn't be an issue anymore- I'm sure my friend will accept the wisdom of the internets here- but if any future FAQs are written I think the above comment on phrasing should be kept in mind (when from a non-English speaking background such trivial things as this can actually stick out quite a lot).

As for the Feeder Tendrils, my friend's interpretation is that the hit and run attacks happen regardless of shields, but if the point of damage is dealt it just knocks down a shield (assuming there is a shield).

I'll probably have to run with his interpretation for feeder tendrils, as that is basically the rules as written. That's not a big problem though, as taking down shields can have its own benefits, and I'm more keen on the hit and run damage.

Thanks to all of you for the help.

Offline harec

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 01:43:18 PM »
No is very clear in the rules any close combat hit means no shields, no matter what kind of it. Massive claws, feder tentrils ramming, boarding , attack craft, all of them ignore shields ::)
I colaborate with a spanish blog called profanus40k.
http://profanus40k.blogspot.com.es/

Offline Geep

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 897
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 01:50:10 PM »
Great- where is that rule? In the main rulebook somewhere?

I always figured feeder tendrils got through shields as well, seeing them as octopus tentacles used for grappling, but in the minds eye of my friend they're a long, jellyfish like tentacle with little power behind them.

Offline harec

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 212
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 02:14:22 PM »
It should say that on the shield rules, shields just work for bateries and lances, apart from some terrain stuff as well, but just in that cases.
The problem is that it doesn't say that specificaly because in BFG there was not close combat as we all know.
In the teory and backgroung (don't forget this is a specialist game) the shields works for high speed attacks, so even it the tyranid ship has a superleng tentacle is just a tentacle. they don't shoot them. Actually as it main name sais they are fedding tentrils, is the mouth of the creature :P
I colaborate with a spanish blog called profanus40k.
http://profanus40k.blogspot.com.es/

Offline Geep

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 897
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 03:19:31 PM »
You're right- Page 25 of the main rule book. Shields are mentioned to: a) ...block one point of damage hitting the ship in a single shooting phase (not movement phase, when feeder tendrils impact) and b) shields are only effective against lances, weapon batteries and nova cannon.
That is clear then. It should have occured to me to look there sooner...

Thanks again

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Tyranid spore shields clarification
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 08:46:12 PM »
Your right tho these should be addressed in a new FAQ, actually theres quite a handful of things that have popped up since 2010 was released.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.