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Author Topic: Comments on my starting line up....  (Read 4724 times)

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Offline squattingmouse

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Comments on my starting line up....
« on: December 09, 2009, 09:30:12 PM »
Here's my planned starting Orlock list.  First time running a necromunda gang despite several Mordheim campaigns so I'm wondering if this lots is sensible....

Leader - Laspistol, chainsword, shotgun
Heavy - Flamer, Laspistol
Heavy - Heavy Stubber, Stub gun (it was the last 10 credits when I worked this out - plan to buy him a lasgun at some stage)
3 gangers - Lasgun, knife
1 ganger - Lasgun, frag grenades, knife
1 ganger - club, autopistol, frag grenades
2 Juves - autopistol, knife

I did want to gangers kitted out for close combat but could only manage to put one together at the end.  The leaders, flamer heavy, juves and two gangers with grenades are to close with covering fire from the others.  Well that's the plan anyway.....  Any comments/advice welcome.
"If at first you don't succeed then next time hit it with something bigger"

Offline Ravendas

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 06:17:39 PM »
Okay, a few things.

The leader: He looks tooled for hand to hand, but he has a shotgun. You can't use two weapons in melee if you have a basic, special, or heavy weapon, as one hand must always be on it. If you want melee, go pistol/chainsword. If you want shooting, take a real leader gun like a boltgun or melta gun, not a shotgun.

Heavies: Pretty good. Heavy stubber is better with a rifle backup, so when he does move he can still take a shot.

Gangers: 4 lasguns? Boring. Mix it up a little bit, this is a gang not a squad. Shotguns work really nice because they can knock people off of ledges much more easily, and can get people in heavy cover more easily as well. Get a nice mix, to cover all situations. Gives them more personality as well I think.

Juves: Yep, autopistol/knife is good.

And just a tip, stubguns are terrible, and laspistols are subpar. Autopistols are the way to go, or bolt pistols if you want a little more oomph.

Offline squattingmouse

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 07:53:32 PM »
It's been rejigged a little -

Leader - Shotgun, laspistol, chainsword (ditch whichever is not being used as he developes)
4 gangers - lasguns (they're being made from a plastic catachan box and I haven't got any autoguns in the spares box unfortunately)
Heavy - Heavy stubber, lasgun
Heavy - flamer, lasgun
1 ganger - club/maul, autopistol, frag grenades
2 juves - autopistol

Oh - and their basic knives
"If at first you don't succeed then next time hit it with something bigger"

Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 04:08:15 AM »
And just a tip, stubguns are terrible, and laspistols are subpar. Autopistols are the way to go, or bolt pistols if you want a little more oomph.

I agree with everything Ravendas has suggested, other than that stubguns are terrible.  I swear by stub guns.  They're cheap, and with Dum Dum bullets, they're very handy.

What Ravendas has put forward is one of the better combinations, but you essentially have a choice.  Either you go for easier hitting or easier wounding.  With Stub Guns (with Dum Dums) you'll rarely hit, but when you do you are a hell of a lot more likely to wound.  With autopistols you're very likely to hit if you're close enough, but you'll wound half of the time and when gangers advance that diminishes.  It should be noted that Juves are best used for getting a lot of experience very quickly.  You don't get experience for hitting, but you do for wounding.  I rest my case ;)

I don't see much alteration in your gang list though.  I think you're really missing out not taking a few shotgun gangers.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 04:11:13 AM by Dimreapa »

Offline squattingmouse

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2010, 04:52:48 PM »
Unfortunately the constraint on how many shotungs my gang has is how many shotguns are in the spares box - 1!  Therefore I gave it to the leader as he's more liekly to hit with it!
"If at first you don't succeed then next time hit it with something bigger"

Offline Hellspawn

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2010, 05:40:36 PM »
Unfortunately the constraint on how many shotungs my gang has is how many shotguns are in the spares box - 1!  Therefore I gave it to the leader as he's more liekly to hit with it!

A thing to keep in mind is that it's just impossible to completely play with a wysiwyg figure, so if you want to put as many shotguns as you want, you can, just make sure that the figure holds a gun and you're good to go :)

Offline Ravendas

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 03:17:55 AM »
And just a tip, stubguns are terrible, and laspistols are subpar. Autopistols are the way to go, or bolt pistols if you want a little more oomph.
I agree with everything Ravendas has suggested, other than that stubguns are terrible.  I swear by stub guns.  They're cheap, and with Dum Dum bullets, they're very handy.

Quote from myself in my probability thread here:

Stubguns with Dumdums vs Autopistols, the legendary battle.
Unless noted otherwise, these are against 3 toughness targets. For brevity, AP is autopistol, SG is stubgun. Wielders are assumed to be basic juves.
Stats:
AP, +2 short/- Long, str3
SG, - Short/-1 Long, str4, Explodes if an ammo roll is failed. If it explodes, it is a str3 hit on the juve, wounding him on a 4+.

Hit % is the chance to hit the target in the given situation, Hit+Wound is the chance you will both hit and wound the target. Both numbers are important, as the first one is the chance to pin the target, and the 2nd one is the chance to actually do some wound causing damage.

2BS, LONG RANGE
Quote
No Cover AP - Hit 33.3%, Hit+Wound 16.7%
No Cover SG - Hit 16.7%, Hit+Wound 11.1%, Chance to Explode on a Hit: 50%

Light Cover AP - Hit 16.7%, Hit+Wound 8.3%
Light Cover SG - Hit 8.3%, Hit+Wound 5.5%, Chance to Explode on a Hit: 50%

Hard Cover AP - Hit 8.3%, Hit+Wound 4.2%
Hard Cover SG - Hit 5.6%, Hit+Wound 3.7%, Chance to Explode on a Hit: 50%

2BS, SHORT RANGE
Quote
No Cover AP - Hit 66.6%, Hit+Wound 33.3%
No Cover SG - Hit 33.3%, Hit+Wound 22.2%, Chance to Explode on a Hit: 25%

Light Cover AP - Hit 50.0%, Hit+Wound 25%
Light Cover SG - Hit 16.7%, Hit+Wound 11.1%, Chance to Explode on a Hit: 50%

Hard Cover AP - Hit 33.3%, Hit+Wound 16.7%
Hard Cover SG - Hit 8.3%, Hit+Wound 5.5%, Chance to Explode on a Hit: 50%


In every situation, the Autopistol has both a higher chance to hit, and a higher chance to wound, despite having 1 less strength than the Stubgun. Also, using the autopistol is much safer, due to it exploding 8.33% of the time you are required to take an ammo check, and only being a strength 2 explosion.

So yeah, that +1str doesn't make up for its -1 or -2 to hit, or the massive increase in chance to explode. Best scenario here for the stubgun is it is 88% as effective as an autopistol, worst case is it's ~33% as effective. At no point does it have a better chance of dropping your target.  Stubguns in the current system are just bad.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:20:48 AM by Ravendas »

Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Comments on my starting line up....
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2010, 05:43:59 AM »
Of course without meaning to be impolite, but that's mathshammer as your argument?  I don't have much time for it.

It might be that I don't put much emphasis on my juves, but I've not really had any problems with them.  My Goliath juves use Autopistols more frequently, but I simply prefer stubguns.

I've notoriously had a bad time with wounding on strength 3, and the only reason I take autopistols is when I intend my juve to become a 'ganger model' when they advance and get a better gun.  Otherwise I keep the Stub gun and try for gunfighter, or use them mostly in combat.

Explosions are a big problem, but that's with all guns and if you spend too much time worrying about it you could miss out on potential perks.  I take a flamer in every gang, so I have a callous disregard for it.  Oh and for statistics.  Not to say it isn't useful, but it spoils my fun.  I still think stubs are worth it.

Its the same with the endless metal/plastic argument.  I prefer metal, and I know it is mostly illogical, but it doesn't alter my stance.  They feel better to me and I prefer painting on them.  What is more complicated than perspective?

Although to avoid this going off the rails into a Mathshammer debate, I'll suggest that Ravendas' advice is sounder than my own.  Lot's of thought has been put into it and it is worth considering, but not the be-all.  Depends how determined you are really.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 05:56:31 AM by Dimreapa »