November 19, 2019, 08:41:07 AM

Poll

How should the Gifts of the Omnissiah look in BFG:R?

We should keep the rules for gifts how they are in 2010 Compendium.
0 (0%)
We should adopt the gift pool method as shown in the first post and not allow further gift choosing options.
7 (63.6%)
We should adopt the gift pool method as shown in the first post and work on further gift choosing options.
0 (0%)
We should construct a gift buying system like the old BFG:R (link posted on first post)
4 (36.4%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: March 06, 2013, 09:44:11 PM

Author Topic: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2  (Read 12876 times)

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Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2013, 08:12:02 PM »
So no bonus vs Lances? Which makes it a pitfall of an upgrade. The concept is good though.

Why not plain or tweaked holofield rule adaption?

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2013, 08:19:07 PM »
I think the MMS holofield would work well. It's not dependent on what the ship already has that makes it work well for this kind of thing.

Offline Bessemer

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2013, 11:11:53 PM »
The holofield idea does fit better IMO. But holofields are more like an ECM than shields, wouldn't it be better to brand it something like "Scattering field"?
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2013, 11:34:14 PM »
The holofield idea does fit better IMO. But holofields are more like an ECM than shields, wouldn't it be better to brand it something like "Scattering field"?

Or "Electronic Countermeasures"?  ;) A new name would be appropriate for this yes, The lol fluff and advanced shield name were 1: funny :P and 2: a means keeping the confusion down.
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2013, 02:11:51 AM »
Seems to be a lot of interest in making Advanced Shielding into Holofields. So what about this (supporters are in italics):

Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 1. Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s
while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders. (Sig)OR 2. just like Tenacity. (afterimagedan, andrew)
    -Andrew, my point about the targeting matrix getting +1 LO is something I don't like because it's a bonus to leadership. I would rather than just making the shooting better like the Tenacity effect. +1 to LO fluffwise seems more like a leadership boost instead of a targeting boost.  I still prefer the second option.

Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (reworded) (everybody, it seems)

Advanced Shielding: 1. just like Eldar MMS Holofields OR 2. Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)

Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. On top of this, the vessel may choose a friendly ship or squadron within 30cm that may reroll missed turrets this Ordnance Phase. (Andrew, afterimagedan)

Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when  attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. (Andrew, afterimagedan, Sig)

Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
   -I think this needs to be buffed.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2013, 03:29:44 AM »
Seems to be a lot of interest in making Advanced Shielding into Holofields. So what about this (supporters are in italics):

Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 1. Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s
while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders. (Sig)OR 2. just like Tenacity. (afterimagedan, andrew)
    -Andrew, my point about the targeting matrix getting +1 LO is something I don't like because it's a bonus to leadership. I would rather than just making the shooting better like the Tenacity effect. +1 to LO fluffwise seems more like a leadership boost instead of a targeting boost.  I still prefer the second option.

Im not really for either so I can get behind the 75% drop in firepower and re-roll ones, Im pretty sure Vaaish backs that too.

Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (reworded) (everybody, it seems)

This should remain the base everything else is compared to.

Advanced Shielding: 1. just like Eldar MMS Holofields OR 2. Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)

Holofields: The Eldar are protected not only by
shielding but also by sophisticated ECM that
actually produce multiple local engine signatures
whilst actively masking the parent ship’s engine
signature. The effect of this is a general interference
that makes accurate targeting extremely difficult.
Against attacks which make use of the gunnery
chart the Holofields force one extra right shift on the
gunnery table, this in addition to any other shift on
the gunnery table. The holofield does not work under
15cm.

Against attacks which make no use of the gunnery
table and target the ship directly (like Lances but not
Nova Cannons or Armageddon Guns), the holofield
offers a save to represent the difficulty of targeting
the Eldar vessel. Whenever an Eldar vessel is hit by
such an attack roll a D6 per hit and compare it to
the holofield save. If the roll equals or exceeds the
holofield save then do not place the blast marker,
the holofield has thwarted the enemy sensors . If not
then place the blast marker as normal, a shield has
overloaded. The holofield keeps on working even if
all shields have been overloaded.

The Holofield is more effective the further away the
Eldar vessel is. See the following table for which
save applies to the holofield:

• Above 30cm              - save on 5+
• Between 15-30cm      - save on 6+
• Under 15cm              - no save

Note: Against attacks which normally ignore
Holofields like the Star Pulse Generator or from an
Activated Blackstone Fortress the Holofield offers no
protection.
Holofields do not save against ordnance.


Just a refresher for those that havent had a good look lately. Im clearly more in the "holofields lite" version 8) standard holofields skew it a little too high. The standardized "Lances require a 5+ to hit" seems decent and wont be as unforgiving as my hits against armor requirement for those 6+ prows.

Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. On top of this, the vessel may choose a friendly ship or squadron within 30cm that may reroll missed turrets this Ordnance Phase. (Andrew, afterimagedan)

Actually my line of thinking was that it work just like: "The Custodian has an integrated Tracking System coupled to an extremely sophisticated sensor suite. It functions in the same manner as that on Messenger starships in all respects but has a range of 20cm" Only the re-rolls for turrets of course not the weapons modifier, 20cm range would be fine if anyone thinks that 30cm is pushing it, I dont however think that limiting the re-rolls to one vessel/ turn would be adequate.

Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when  attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. (Andrew, afterimagedan, Sig)

Shesy

Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
   -I think this needs to be buffed.

I agree but its a touchy one... I still hate that this requires your ship to be crippled before it comes into effect.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 03:32:24 AM by AndrewChristlieb »
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2013, 03:59:23 AM »
So, what can we use to buff EER? Also, what does "shesy" mean? Could you write out your Fleet Defense Turrets idea? I am having a hard time getting where you are going.  I can get behind the GSTM with the rerolling 1s.

Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: 1. Ship weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50% when on All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its lances and weapon batteries.

Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries shift left on the gunnery table. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (reworded original)

Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when  attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.

So, I think FDT, AS, and EER need a bit more work. I could for for your fleet defense turrets at 20cm, maybe even 15cm.  EER seems like it needs a buff. It's a big "what if" because it may never take effect in a game. I mean, yes, it's an insurance plan. I think it needs a constant bonus too.  I really like Vaaish's AS rules too.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2013, 04:12:51 AM »
How about a fleet defense targeting system, add 2 turrets to the chosen vessel (to a maximum of 6) and allow it and any friendly ship within 30cm to reroll misses with turrets.

Shesy = sexy with a bad accent ;).
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2013, 04:15:30 AM »
Nice.

Offline Duke

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2013, 04:22:59 AM »
*Jumps in* Well, what if keeping with its Emergency theme EER has an additional preventative measure: it reduces the crippled threshold to 1/4, rounding up. The ADmech CLs benefit especially, giving them an extra hit before really becoming a points drain. Or is this too much?
And/or, and this is a small one, give a bonus to repair dice.

-Duke

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 04:33:45 AM »
Quote
Im not really for either so I can get behind the 75% drop in firepower and re-roll ones, Im pretty sure Vaaish backs that too.

correct.

Quote
Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)

I would still prefer the shifts and 5+ over straight up holofields. And I'd go for the counts hits against shields using the ships highest armor value. It's simple to understand and use and gives a small boost that can still be countered. It also only relates to shields while the shifts relate to all hits which gets a bit away from the shield mechanic.

Quote
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when  attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.

were we still looking at -5cm to minimum turn distance on AE?

Quote
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect

what about this: If a crippled vessel equipped with EER disengages, it only gives up 10% VP instead of the full 25%.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 04:38:34 AM by Vaaish »
-Vaaish

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 05:06:15 AM »
And/or, and this is a small one, give a bonus to repair dice.

-Duke

I was thinking about repair dice too but those are still definite "what if" occurrences. I would like to see a more constant effect.

Quote
Im not really for either so I can get behind the 75% drop in firepower and re-roll ones, Im pretty sure Vaaish backs that too.

correct.

I'm down with this.

Quote
Enemy weapon batteries firing on the vessel suffer a right shift on the weapon battery chart. All lances firing on this vessel only cause a hit on a 5+ (counter to AWR) (Vaaish, afterimagedan)

I would still prefer the shifts and 5+ over straight up holofields. And I'd go for the counts hits against shields using the ships highest armor value. It's simple to understand and use and gives a small boost that can still be countered. It also only relates to shields while the shifts relate to all hits which gets a bit away from the shield mechanic.

I think the shift and 5+ is the easiest to use and I think it balances better than the other option. I think I like the persistent effect that this has over the shields against the highest armor effect which only seems to deal with weapon batteries.


Quote
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed, as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when  attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading or Burn Retros special orders.

were we still looking at -5cm to minimum turn distance on AE?

Yes we were. Sorry about not posting that! Actually, I would like to see it combined with the +5cm move and +1D6 on AAF instead of the +1ld thing.

Quote
Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled, the ship reduces its turrets, shielding, and weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect

what about this: If a crippled vessel equipped with EER disengages, it only gives up 10% VP instead of the full 25%.

Eh, I don't know. Definitely something to keep on the table.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2013, 06:16:07 AM »
What about something like:

Emergency Energy Reserves: When on Brace for Impact special order, reduce the ships weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. This effect goes away if the ship becomes crippled, but do not reduce its turrets, shielding, or speed. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.
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Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2013, 02:44:34 PM »
Let's not bury Duke's idea. Making it harder to cripple in the first place would be both rather good and both functionally and thematically applicable.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2013, 05:01:40 PM »
What about something like:

Emergency Energy Reserves: When on Brace for Impact special order, reduce the ships weapons strength to 75% instead of 50%. This effect goes away if the ship becomes crippled, but do not reduce its turrets, shielding, or speed. The vessel still counts as crippled in every other respect.

Try this with a braced lunar. With rounding, it has very little penalty. Either way, I like where this is going. I could see Duke's add a repair dice added to the when crippled, you're at 75%. Maybe the ship counts as having two more hits when calculating repair dice amount  (which means it gets 1 at some times).