November 12, 2019, 01:46:26 AM

Poll

How should the Gifts of the Omnissiah look in BFG:R?

We should keep the rules for gifts how they are in 2010 Compendium.
0 (0%)
We should adopt the gift pool method as shown in the first post and not allow further gift choosing options.
7 (63.6%)
We should adopt the gift pool method as shown in the first post and work on further gift choosing options.
0 (0%)
We should construct a gift buying system like the old BFG:R (link posted on first post)
4 (36.4%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Voting closed: March 06, 2013, 09:44:11 PM

Author Topic: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2  (Read 12840 times)

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Offline Sigoroth

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Re: BFG-R Admech gifts discussion
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2013, 07:05:56 PM »
My opinions in the body of the quotes below:


Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled,
the ship does not reduce  turrets, shielding or
weapons strength. The vessel still counts as
crippled in every other respect.

I think leave this at 75%, so that there's some effect of crippling.

Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when
attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading
or Burn Retros special orders.

I like this change. Makes the refit somewhat more usable.

Advanced Shielding: Ignore all negative effects
of having a blast marker or gas clouds in contact
with the ship's base as it applies to leadership,
movement and repairing critical damage. For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed on a roll of 6. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed” critical
damage

Don't think I like this addition much. I think I prefer a version of Vaaish's idea here.

Fleet Defense Turrets: Two fleet defense turrets
are added to the ship capable of protecting itself
or any one other vessel within 15cm each
ordnance phase, adding +2 to the turret strength
of the ship it is defending (this does not alter
bomber attack rolls when used to defend another
vessel). These otherwise work exactly as normal
turrets do in all other respects.

I hate FDT. It's a crappy refit, it does sod all and, most importantly, I can't imagine how it would work. Hell, if it's possible to have your AA guns fire upto 15cm away so effectively then why don't all ships have FDT as standard? How is it possible to hit AC that are weaving in and out of the shadow of the target? In fact, why bother waiting to shoot until they're right on top of the target rather than, say, when they're on their way in out in the open and travelling in a straight line? I hate FDT.

I would much rather this whole entry was replaced, say by Vaaish's advanced manoeuvring thrusters (the -5cm to minimum turn distance one).

Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders.

This one is good. At least now that targeting matrix actually comes in handy when trying to shoot at the enemy, as well as when manoeuvring.

Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.

Always was the best option, so no modification needed.


2. Advanced engines: allow a ship equipped with AE to initiate turns one class better than it is. So a battleship would move 10cm before turning, cruisers could begin turning at any point in a move.

I like this concept, but I think it would be better served as a straight -5cm to minimum distance before turning. I'm not sure about cruisers being able to turn on the spot. However, my preference for this option would be as a replacement to the hated FDT, not as a replacement to the other manoeuvring refit.

3. Advanced shield: hits against shields must be resolved using the highest armor value on the ship.

I like this concept. This would be my preferred shield mod. However I would say at +1 armour (max 6). A light cruiser with this refit would otherwise gain no benefit at all. And if this refit were ever stolen and used by someone else (Orks say) then it would raise their 4+ rear armour to 6+ as long as the shields are up.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 07:11:51 PM by Sigoroth »

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2013, 07:32:01 PM »
Quote
We don't need to reference two different documents when the rules will be written right on the Admech list. What other document will we need?  I think your idea may work but I would like to encourage NOT going on BFI instead of going on BFI.

I thought you were going to list the gift simply as reference Tenacity and MTT. I highly doubt the extra shield or two would encourage BFI. You are severely limiting your own capability to do any return damage and preventing the use of any other SO. At best you are passing two brace saves automatically and in a typical brace scenario that might just account for the difference between hulked and disengaging or crippled.
-Vaaish

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2013, 09:01:20 PM »
FDT is a good rule but a stupid concept which does make the rule crap.

How about a fleet defense targeting system, add 2 turrets to the chosen vessel (to a maximum of 6) and allow it and any friendly ship within 30cm to reroll misses with turrets.


I think the idea behind the -5cm to turning was that it would be in addition to the benefit already given by advanced engines.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 09:04:57 PM by AndrewChristlieb »
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2013, 12:15:37 AM »
So far, these seem to be sticking with people:

Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when
attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading
or Burn Retros special orders.

Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (the usual)

Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders.

I realized that I had said EER should be the same rules as Tenacity but I meant GSTM. Oops.

What I would like to see:
GSTM - GSTM either just like Tenacity (don't reduce firepower at all for AAF, BR, or CTNH) OR reduce only 25% and reroll 1s. The +1 Ld to LO doesn't seem to fir the "targeting matrix" concept like reroll 1s does. So, I would prefer this:

*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.

Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.

*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.

Fleet Defense Turrets - I like Andrew's new idea a lot. "How about a fleet defense targeting system, add 2 turrets to the chosen vessel (to a maximum of 6) and allow it and any friendly ship within 30cm to reroll misses with turrets."

*Fleet Defense Turrets: A vessel with Fleet Defense Turrets adds 2 to their turret value. On top of this, the vessel may choose a friendly ship or squadron within 30cm that may reroll missed turrets this Ordnance Phase.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 12:50:26 AM by afterimagedan »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2013, 12:44:53 AM »
I dont know about that whole +1 shield when on BFI :/. It seems to me that if i had the ability to throw up an additional shield id do it all the time :D. what does that mean for ships with two shields also? Adding a third shield would push them to a large base, should i pick up and swap bases at that point then or gloss over the obvious rule descripency? How about allowing hits against the shields to be braced instead?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2013, 12:52:32 AM »
Oops, I posted my edited post after you posted that...

I think being able to brace with shields would do the same thing and if fact be more powerful for battleships. A battleship will have the equivalent of 2 shield while on BFI with that EER. That scaling is not the best IMO. If we are going to go with some sort of bracing effect, which I am not the biggest fan of, I think the +1 shield when bracing balances things better.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2013, 01:18:29 AM »
I realized that I had said EER should be the same rules as Tenacity but I meant GSTM. Oops.

What I would like to see:
GSTM - GSTM either just like Tenacity (don't reduce firepower at all for AAF, BR, or CTNH) OR reduce only 25% and reroll 1s. The +1 Ld to LO doesn't seem to fir the "targeting matrix" concept like reroll 1s does. So, I would prefer this:

*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.

Yup, targeting matrix wouldnt make targeting any better at all  ::). The re-roll ones idea could work, its always on nature is kind of off putting tho. I think I like the no reduction more than the re-rolls but like Sig said about EER, theres no effect then.

Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.

*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.

Is this it? It seems a bit underwhelming... And really shouldnt this be called Advanced Composites then? The light cruisers would see 6+ armor with any of these versions btw, only the Emperor type ships with 5+ all around armor would see a benifit from Sigs, This would put all ships at 6+ all around.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 01:26:10 AM by AndrewChristlieb »
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2013, 01:54:09 AM »
GSTM - GSTM either just like Tenacity (don't reduce firepower at all for AAF, BR, or CTNH) OR reduce only 25% and reroll 1s. The +1 Ld to LO doesn't seem to fir the "targeting matrix" concept like reroll 1s does. So, I would prefer this:

*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on special orders.

Yup, targeting matrix wouldnt make targeting any better at all  ::). The re-roll ones idea could work, its always on nature is kind of off putting tho. I think I like the no reduction more than the re-rolls but like Sig said about EER, theres no effect then.

I like the no reduction more as well.

Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.

*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.

Is this it? It seems a bit underwhelming... And really shouldnt this be called Advanced Composites then? The light cruisers would see 6+ armor with any of these versions btw, only the Emperor type ships with 5+ all around armor would see a benifit from Sigs, This would put all ships at 6+ all around.

6+ armor on prow means only damaged half the time on any 5+ armor because of the upgrade to 6+. Imagine a full on 6+ armor Retribution running around, or an Apoc, or even a Gothic or Tyrant. I think this is a pretty big deal. That's about a 16pt upgrade for cruisers, 30pts for light cruisers, 24pts for 6+ prow battleships, and 40pts for 5+ armor battleships. Hmm, maybe we need something that is a little more evened out...

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2013, 02:33:32 AM »
Ya Strike Cruisers are pretty stout with 6 hits and Barges are beastly, even with their poor range, thats probably why theyre expensive ;).
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2013, 02:44:04 AM »
Ya Strike Cruisers are pretty stout with 6 hits and Barges are beastly, even with their poor range, thats probably why theyre expensive ;).

Yet, I suppose the upgrade cost for battleships is going to cost more so that makes sense it would effect them more. So, I'm game.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2013, 06:50:37 AM »
Quote
I like the no reduction more as well.

The mechanics behind SO always give you an advantage but do so at a cost. Even refit modifiers still maintain some penalty. Removing the penalty entirely removes that cost/benefit mechanic which I think should be avoided under any circumstances.

Quote
Is this it? It seems a bit underwhelming... And really shouldnt this be called Advanced Composites then? The light cruisers would see 6+ armor with any of these versions btw, only the Emperor type ships with 5+ all around armor would see a benifit from Sigs, This would put all ships at 6+ all around.

If I may direct us back, I think that this should return to what I originally posted where hits are resolved using the ships highest armor value until shields are down. This avoids the sudden boost of everything to 6+ all around and means some of the softer prows on the BB don't get any boost. It also keeps ordnance attacks unchanged which is something that just upping the armor value by +1 affects.
-Vaaish

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2013, 01:09:50 PM »

The mechanics behind SO always give you an advantage but do so at a cost. Even refit modifiers still maintain some penalty. Removing the penalty entirely removes that cost/benefit mechanic which I think should be avoided under any circumstances.

Yes there should be some penalty, with the Nids I think it was easier to remove the weapon reduction penalty because of their Instinctive
Orders, the 10% price tag didnt hurt either.


If I may direct us back, I think that this should return to what I originally posted where hits are resolved using the ships highest armor value until shields are down. This avoids the sudden boost of everything to 6+ all around and means some of the softer prows on the BB don't get any boost. It also keeps ordnance attacks unchanged which is something that just upping the armor value by +1 affects.

I dont know, it seems to me that this should be an always on mechanic to reduce confusion. If we limit this to a boost to the armor when shields are up does that mean people must sit and throw dice one at a time looking for 6's to take down the shields then to hit armor once the shields are down? Or should we throw them all at once? This is also limiting the effectiveness to just weapons batteries, lances would be unaffected.On a few ships this would have no effect at all (Emperor, Oberon) that should be avoided.

How about something like: The ships shield array emitters have been anoited and blessed to further reduce the effects of weapons fire. This, along with a complex system of mulitspectrum jamming devices and holo emitters studded around the ship, works to confuse the visual and electronic tracking systems of enemy vessels.

Advanced Shielding Weapon batteries
targeting the ship must shift right on the
gunnery table before all other modifiers are
applied. Lances must hit against the facing
armor value of the ship.

The perfect counterpart to AWR??? This would also be universally useful to the ships.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2013, 03:21:14 PM »
So kind of like a AdMech holofield lite? I like it except for the lances. Why don't we just make it "Lances hit on a 5+"
-Vaaish

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2013, 04:13:33 PM »
Tenacity can be put on a tyranids hive ship for 20pts. Tyranids have to deal with instinctive behavior with or without tenacity. They are going to try to gain control of their ships anyways and if they do, they get a free special order. I don't see any downside to tenacity in that. Plus, tenacity can even benefit some behaviors. It doesn't have a downside for them. Plus, the admech ship with this girt is giving up some other gift for this so that's a downside in itself. If we keep it at 75%, we will need to give them more than that for that gift.

I like the holofield light for advanced shielding. Great idea. I think I prefer the column shift and the 5+ for lances. That makes it really simple and consistent compared to the roll against armor for the lances.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: BFG:R Vote 44: Adeptus Mechanicus Gifts 2
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2013, 04:46:24 PM »
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6. (the usual)

One thing I would like to change about this is the wording. Dump the "before all other modifiers are applied" part. It's silly. Consider that you're shooting at a defence at long range. So you start at the left-most column and now you're forced to apply your AWR left-column shift, which takes you exactly nowhere, and then you get the long range right-column shift leaving you in the "closing cap ship" column. Clearly these two should cancel out and leave you in the defences column. Stupid wording.

Quote
*Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship may reroll 1s
while firing its weaponry if it is not on lock-on
special orders.

This is ok.

Quote
Advanced Shielding - I like Sig's idea of just increasing the armor by 1 for Advanced Shielding. This makes it more useful for light cruisers.

*Advances Shielding: A ship with Advanced Shielding increases its armor values by 1 to a maximum on 6+.

This should say that shield hits are at +1 armour, as per Vaaish's original idea. How this would work, in effect, would be that in any batch of shooting if there are enough hits to take down shields at the improved armour then the rolls that would would have hit the regular armour, do. If the shields don't go down, then they don't. For example, a CL has the upgrade giving its shield an armour rating of 6+ which is then shot at by 8WB dice in a single salvo. The rolls come up 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5. Since no shot gets through the strengthened shield the ship takes no hits. If the rolls were 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6 then the shield would be dropped and it would take 2 hull hits. If the firing ship is on LO then it would have to re-roll all misses, including the three 5's from the 1st example (since the shields are still up they all count as misses).

Of course, people could easily get around this extra defence simply by dropping the shields with lances, however then subsequent fire would have intervening blast markers.