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Author Topic: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?  (Read 10573 times)

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Offline Talos

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BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« on: March 01, 2013, 04:40:50 AM »
Hey guys,

I can't help but feel like we are making some real headway here. Plaxor's original ambitious project has been dissected and is going ahead at a good clip as we tackle issues one at a time through community voting. Which is good.

But I feel like there is a bit of a problem: everyone in the community can vote, but this project is not for the entire community. It is for those in the community who want to use it, who want to share it and who want to develop it to improve the game.

I get that not everyone wants the same things from this project, but one thing is certain: this is not theoretical and it is radical. There is no way around that. Traditional minded players do not accept the Faq 2010, and are even less inclined to accept this project as it is even less official then that hallowed document. This document is intended to improve the game in the ways that acting players want to, to make it both more balanced, enjoyable and refined.

I can't help but feel that not everyone that votes or voices an opinion actually wants this project to come to fruition or does not care because they have no intent of ever using it. It seems strange to me then that these people have equal voice in it because they skew votes: if for example everyone who intended to use BFG:R wanted the desolator removed (obviously not the case), and the vote ended up tied because of people who don't really care for the project it would be unfair to the players intent on actually playing it to have their rules modified by people that will be un-involved in actual play.

So basically, is there anyone working on this other than me and afterimagedan who actually intend to use the BFG:R project as a whole?

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2013, 05:31:02 AM »
I'm willing to use it if the results help to balance aspects of the game that the HA weren't able to tackle for a variety of reasons.

I AM very concerned about the clip the project is moving at. Is there any play testing of proposed changes happening or is the discussion entirely theoretical? I find it more than a little frightening to think that what's talked about for a day or two gets thrown up for a vote to be "official." There seems to be very little vetting of rules or changes before these votes take place and if the votes are simply to help make a beta document for testing, there doesn't seem to be a clear path to trials before things become final. What I've been party to thus far also concerns me that there is no baseline to test against at this point because everything is in flux at the same time and that all changes are simply coming up as whatever feels good at the moment.

For instance, the changes to Bakka to restrict carriers using reserve rules. It seems like a fluffy and cool concept since the fleet is supposed to be low AC, but did anyone actually TEST the fleet with the rule in effect before it went to vote? If so, how many tests were performed and against what fleets? There's no telling at this point if the change just completely broke Bakka because AC are too scarce for it to survive on FDT and extra turrets alone.

The same goes for the Jovian, it's a ship that shouldn't exist. It goes against the core of the IN. One that was so volatile the HA made it a reserve ship to an obscure fleet with a limit of 0-1. Yet with exceptionally little discussion it was thrown to a vote to be made "official" so that ever IN fleet can pull it out.
-Vaaish

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2013, 05:37:28 AM »
My main intention is to use the revised point costs (and incidental) state change for existing ships.
And the fleet lists when I like them.

Just as with the FAQ: people will pick what they like and drop what they dislike.

We still use the BFG v1.0 blastmarker rules. :)

Offline Koshi

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2013, 08:01:42 AM »
I want to use it, when it is done. I like the changes so far and when it is done I want to use it entirely.

Offline Brethren

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2013, 10:38:42 AM »
I want to use it, when it is done. I like the changes so far and when it is done I want to use it entirely.
Same here. I really liked BFG:R v1.0 for simplifying stuff (i.e. merging everything in less books, turrets in squadrons) and trying to fix ships that were obviously wrong (stat or point-wise).
My buddy complaints a lot how the IN light cruisers turned out... but that's all barking, no biting. ;D

Offline RCgothic

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2013, 10:49:56 AM »
I'm afraid I've not been as active lately as I used to be and have become a little out of the loop, but I certainly intended to use BFG:R as it stood when I last had any idea what it was.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2013, 12:11:23 PM »
Like some others my only concern with this is the lack of testing, but if we can get everything to a point where we have compleated fleet lists I think we will be at a good place to run tests. Right now I guess the fleets that are "done" should have a feedback area maybe to go over results that people have had. I know I havent had any complaints with what we have compleated so far, of course with the exception of 2 hit escorts there hasnt been anything really major done so far. Where people will sit with some of the things were working on now will need to be seen.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2013, 01:37:04 PM »
Although we have had lots of proofreading and outside opinions, playtesting new rules is always important, and I see where people stand on this. Is there anybody willing to playtest some of the fleets so far? I can see about trying the IN modifications with ThaneAquilon, and he try out anything we do with tau or eldar (which is very little since we basically took MMS 1.9b unmodified). Is there anyone with Necron or SM fleets that can do some testing on them? We have Chaos stuff but I am worried about testing it since the document is not complete yet.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 02:31:22 PM »
While I think most of the passed votes does not need any/much playtesting because of how small the changes or how commonly accepted the changes are, I think it we should get a playtesting page up (which I will start in a sec) so that people can talk about their experiences playtesting the changes.  Some of the changes have been personally playtested by myself so I can validate many of the changes made so far. Just so everyone knows, I have a list of the changes passed and the documents in their current state here:

++BFG:R Project++

Offline Spellfire

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 04:49:31 PM »
Is the project a revision of just the fleet lists or the rules as well? The reason I ask is because I cannot see any updated rules on the site linked above.

Offline Bessemer

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 05:18:42 PM »
The play-testing page is a bloody good Idea! No more asking round to see whose doing what!

As for those who don't care, I have noticed something. There's around a dozen or so regular posters on this forum, and at least double that in semi-regulars (like myself), plus hangers on.

Yet the votes seem to only get around 10 or so votes to them. One of which is mine. I've voted on damn near all the polls so far. So there must be a fair few who want their voice to be herd but not contributing to the polls. Don't take this as a vitriolic rant, I don't have much time to keep an active presence myself, the only reason I've been as active as I have over the last few days is 'cause I've had the week off.

But the way I see it, once the we're done, the whole thing will become a sort of "living rulebook" like the SG stuff was supposed to be- a ruleset that was going to be updated every so often, with fan/community input.

lets just get the bare bones done and address major sticking points later instead of bogging down with point-counterpoint going on for x-number of pages.

Dan-Your the man at the wheel, so to speak. Ever thought of giving yourself power of veto?
I refuse to be killed by something I've never heard of.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 07:00:22 PM »
Is the project a revision of just the fleet lists or the rules as well? The reason I ask is because I cannot see any updated rules on the site linked above.

No rules updates yet except the changes to nova cannons and some little stuff for 2 hit escorts.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 07:04:18 PM »
The play-testing page is a bloody good Idea! No more asking round to see whose doing what!

As for those who don't care, I have noticed something. There's around a dozen or so regular posters on this forum, and at least double that in semi-regulars (like myself), plus hangers on.

Yet the votes seem to only get around 10 or so votes to them. One of which is mine. I've voted on damn near all the polls so far. So there must be a fair few who want their voice to be herd but not contributing to the polls. Don't take this as a vitriolic rant, I don't have much time to keep an active presence myself, the only reason I've been as active as I have over the last few days is 'cause I've had the week off.

But the way I see it, once the we're done, the whole thing will become a sort of "living rulebook" like the SG stuff was supposed to be- a ruleset that was going to be updated every so often, with fan/community input.

lets just get the bare bones done and address major sticking points later instead of bogging down with point-counterpoint going on for x-number of pages.

Dan-Your the man at the wheel, so to speak. Ever thought of giving yourself power of veto?

That's the thing. I don't want to be the man at the wheel, I just want to facilitate the voting. I will not give myself the power to veto. I am not going to be that guy and tyrant this project. Changes through voting, even if it takes longer. You know, other projects have come and gone because one member takes too much onto themselves.

Offline Seahawk

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 07:28:51 PM »
I abstain from voting because I have no intention to use BFG:R, and I don't want to mess the vote, as it were. ;)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R as a finished project-Who actually cares?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2013, 07:34:49 PM »
Seahawk, I highly appreciate that!