November 20, 2019, 08:13:24 AM

Author Topic: Starcraft Protoss in BFG  (Read 3375 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« on: March 10, 2012, 04:14:06 AM »
More Starcraft Fleets! Hope you like it!

+++The Protoss Protectorate Fleet+++

If you are interested in playtesting, please let me know.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 04:26:41 AM by afterimagedan »

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3868
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 06:16:05 AM »
Hi,
why so much special rules for one race? I see much +++ points and no weakness. ?

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
It's mainly in the point cost and lower hits. Their main cruiser, while having two shields, has only 6 hits and costs about what a Lunar does. 6 hits combined with 5+ armor is not the best durability for a fleet that needs to be closing to be the most effective. Any thoughts of stuff you would like to see changed?

Edit: Also, they lack any torpedoes. This makes their bombers a little less effective because of how turrets work on a ship getting hit by 2 different types of ordinance.

Also, there isn't any real downside to Chaos, when you look at it. The only downside Chaos has, from what I can see at the moment, is the 5+ armor. They have regular weapons but have unusually long range on them, better boarding than usual, better speed than usual, regular leadership, good carrier options, limited torpedo options but they at least have some (from BFG:R: All their battleships have or can have torpedoes, the Grand Cruisers can have torpedoes, the Schismatic, Infidel, and Havoc.

Yes, this Protoss list does have a lot of special rules but not as much as the Eldar fleets. They seem to be on the Necron level of special rules.

Pros:
-nicer but pricier lances (prismatic beam)
-nicer but pricier weapon batteries (photon batteries)
-chaos level boarding
-a +1 to leadership
-resilient bombers
-decent speed
-nexus ships

Cons:
-no option for torpedoes
-very front focused and will struggle with broadside battles
-overall expensive
-lower hit points in everything besides escorts (of course)
-overall less firepower but the weapons have nice bonuses

I am certainly up for any advice on how to change the fleet. My ultimate goal here is to have a fun but functional and balanced fleet.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 08:37:31 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline Eldanesh

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 01:40:44 AM »
Quote
My ultimate goal here is to have a fun but functional and balanced fleet.
1. Get rid of 90% of the special rules, most of them are unneccessary
3+ Lances -> just use regular lances an incease the numbers by 1/3
Shielding -> the same
etc.
Just keep these rules who are really "characteristic".

2. Tone the fleet down. Really. Most of the ships are over the top.
If you want people to play your selfmade fleet, you better start with inferior profiles and increse them if  they turn out to be too weak. Don't think that you'll play this fleet, think from a perspective as if you'll play against this fleet.

3. Fleet composition: 1:1 ratio for Battlecrusiers? Limitation for Battleships?

« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 01:42:38 AM by Eldanesh »

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 02:32:19 AM »
1. Which special rules? I hear what you are saying with the lance thing. Also, I think the shield thing is pretty characteristic of Protoss, same with the leadership and boarding. If you give me a few of them you think would be good to change, that would rock.

2. We play tested the first version a bunch of times and the Protoss (many more points then) got whomped pretty much every game. So, we dropped the points. Also, I have played with and against this fleet. I'm hoping that posting it here will get some good feedback and people will help us get it to a balanced place.

3. Very good point. That needs to be added in there.

Edit: Is there a specific ship you think is over-costed? I think they may be a good start to look at it that way and then we can pick it apart.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 07:12:08 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline Eldanesh

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 06:32:33 PM »
Quote
Also, I think the shield thing is pretty characteristic of Protoss
The main problem for me is, that these rules are too "luck-based". This is cool for Ors, but not for any high tech race.
The protoss-shield rule is a good example: it can do anything from nothing to 4 additional hits absorbed.

Also it is too good in the average: on the battleship this equals 5 1/3 shields, on the Battlecruiser it equals 4 shields.

Quote
Which special rules?
Photon Batteries: can't see why they should deserve a special rule for damage. Even almighty Necrons don't cause more damage. Especially as most ships ar enot affected by long range.
Resilent Bombers: same here don't see why they should be resilent. Especially combined with the high hangar capacity of the fleet.

Ships:
tassadar: Too much. OK, 520P is a lot, but the equivalent of Firepower 38* at the Front arc at 60cm AND 8 resilent Bombers AND 20cm speed AND 5 1/3 shields....
(*the 5 Lances equal 6,67 regular lances or roughly Firepower 20)

Aiur: its better than an Emperor in an In Fleet, has resilent bombers... would it see more in the 450P region.

colossus: seems OK. strong shields (4!) but can't focus its weapons. 

Guardian: way to cheap 6 resilent bombers a turn for 230P? ....

Arbiter: Special rule to strong. A Squad on BFI and rerolls for hits..

Immortal: FP16@45cm and 2 resilent bombers for 175P.

Unfading: FP20@45cm for 175P...

Escorts: expensive, but F/L/R broadsides are migty (you'll get only hit on the rightmost collumn)

With the "Nexus" rule you are simply unbeatable: move in range, shoot, teleport to a arbiter out of enemy weapon range. repeat next turn. An even IF the enemy manages to get close enough...doesnt' matter as the ships are on BFI

Fleet commander: why on earth do they get the Cheap Tau-Commander price list? If an eldar (same LD) wants an LD10 Admiral he has to pay 150P...


Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 01:03:10 AM »
Quote
Also, I think the shield thing is pretty characteristic of Protoss
The main problem for me is, that these rules are too "luck-based". This is cool for Ors, but not for any high tech race.

The protoss-shield rule is a good example: it can do anything from nothing to 4 additional hits absorbed.

Also it is too good in the average: on the battleship this equals 5 1/3 shields, on the Battlecruiser it equals 4 shields.

Agreed. Less random would be preferable. What could we do to make their shields elite style but not random?

Quote
Which special rules?
Photon Batteries: can't see why they should deserve a special rule for damage. Even almighty Necrons don't cause more damage. I do think they should have one of the two weapons be exceptional. Necrons do not have special weapons batteries but all the eldar do and SM (sort of) and Tyranids. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Especially as most ships ar enot affected by long range.
Resilent Bombers: same here don't see why they should be resilent. Especially combined with the high hangar capacity of the fleet. You're right. The Auir, when we got to playtest it, got wrecked pretty quickly. I think this would even out much more just making them non-resilient and, once we work the rest out, reworking the points.

Ships:
tassadar: Too much. OK, 520P is a lot, but the equivalent of Firepower 38* at the Front arc at 60cm AND 8 resilent Bombers AND 20cm speed AND 5 1/3 shields....
(*the 5 Lances equal 6,67 regular lances or roughly Firepower 20) I have to confess, this wasn't playtested because it is the newest model released.

Aiur: its better than an Emperor in an In Fleet, has resilent bombers... would it see more in the 450P region. I think it would be closer to it without resilient bombers.

colossus: seems OK. strong shields (4!) but can't focus its weapons.

Guardian: way to cheap 6 resilent bombers a turn for 230P? .... What about non-resilient?

Arbiter: Special rule to strong. A Squad on BFI and rerolls for hits..

Immortal: FP16@45cm and 2 resilent bombers for 175P.

Unfading: FP20@45cm for 175P...

Escorts: expensive, but F/L/R broadsides are migty (you'll get only hit on the rightmost collumn)

With the "Nexus" rule you are simply unbeatable: move in range, shoot, teleport to a arbiter out of enemy weapon range. repeat next turn. An even IF the enemy manages to get close enough...doesnt' matter as the ships are on BFI When we have used the Nexus rules, it doesn't work like that because you are advancing as well. The escorts can teleport but after a turn or two, the nexus ship is usually dead (when we played).

Fleet commander: why on earth do they get the Cheap Tau-Commander price list? If an eldar (same LD) wants an LD10 Admiral he has to pay 150P... I will check this out.

My responses in italics. Thanks for taking the time to do that!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 01:06:25 AM by afterimagedan »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 03:53:55 AM »
Ok I'm just going to hit on the special rules here.

Protoss Special Rules
Leadership: When rolling to generate leaderships for you fleet, Protoss ships add +1, giving them a
range of 7-10.

They have a high number of psykers so I would expect to see cheap re-rolls with basic leadership.

Boarding: Protoss add +1 to their total when in any boarding action.

Drop it there's no reason for this.

Protoss Shields: Protoss shields function like normal shields with one exception. When Protoss ships
are damaged, roll a d6 for each shield that is going to be damaged; any 5+ absorbs an additional hit
from the total damage. When shooting an escort squadron, roll for each shield that has the potential of
being damaged.
For example, an enemy cruiser causes 4 hits the a squadron of Dragoons. The Protoss player then gets
to roll 2 dice representing the Protoss Shield saves. The Protoss player rolls a 5 and a 2; one of the
shields absorbs another hit. Now, the hits are allocated: the closest Dragoon's shields absorb 2 hits,
the 3rd hit destroys the Dragoon, and the 4th hit takes the 2nd Dragoon's shields down.

Lots of standard shields... nuff said. A good rule of thumb with protoss is that combat units usually have at least half as many shields as they do hit points. A 6 hit light cruiser (what I would consider a standard protoss carrier) would have 3 shields.

Photon Batteries: Photon Batteries function like Weapon Batteries with one exception. When firing on
enemy ships, if any 6 is rolled in the group of dice, the receiving vessel immediately looses one, and
only one shield before the damage is resolved. Multiple 6s are no different than one 6 rolled.
For example, a Protoss ship firing against a Repulsive Class Cruiser with 3 shields. The Protoss player
rolls 6,6,4,3,1,1. Since a 6 was rolled in the group of dice, an extra shield of the Repulsive's is taken
down. Continuing shooting as normal, the two 6s take down two more shields. In the end, 3 shields
were damaged and 3 blast markers are placed on the Repulsive.

Make them mid ranged (45cm) and fire like lances (without the weapons chart) but hit against armor, adjust the quantity to compensate.

Prismatic Beam: The Protoss Prismatic Beam functions as a lance that hits on a 3+

Long range (60cm) lance, pulsar style (only 1 additional hit tho), very limited numbers in fleet and this should be their only long range option..

Gateway: The Protoss Gateway functions exactly like an additional teleport attack. They cannot be
used while crippled or on Brace for Impact, Come to New Heading, All Ahead Full, or Burn Retros.
The usual restriction that teleport attacks can only be made against ships with less remaining Hull
Points is waived, with the exception that Protoss Zealot class vessels do not carry enough Warriors to
board anything with more than 6 Hull Points remaining.

cool

Void Ray Bombers: Void Ray Bombers function exactly like bombers. If a Void Ray is attacked by an
enemy fighter, roll a D6. On a roll of 4+, the enemy fighter is removed and the Void Ray remains in
play. On a roll of 1-3, the Void Ray and enemy fighter are removed normally. The Void Ray may only
attempt this roll once per player turn.

Drop bombers all together. I would have Scout class Torpedo-Fighter Bombers as the only BFG style attack craft. For that matter the same goes for terran, Wraith class Torpedo-Fighter Bombers with a bonus on the Wraith that they receive a 4+ save against any attack (cloak).

Cybernetic Intercepters: Intercepters function like regular fighters in every way.

I would have most capitol ships with these as standard weapons batteries 30cm all around. Adjust the quantity to match

Nexus Ships: Ships classified as a Nexus Ship have the ability to “Nexus Warp” escorts to themselves.
When testing special orders at the beginning of your turn, an escort squadron of no more than 6 ships
that is with 60cm of a Nexus Ship may decide to Nexus Warp to it. This functions the same way as
taking any other special order. If this Nexus Warp special order is passed, the escort squadron's
weaponry are at half strength this shooting phase. At the beginning of the Protoss player's ordinance
phase, the escort squadron is removed from the table and placed within 10cm of the designated Nexus
Ship, facing the same direction. The squadron may not take regular special orders on top of Nexus
Warping. You must declare which Nexus Ship you are warping to.  One squadron of escorts may
teleport to a Nexus Ship per turn.

Escorts should warp immediately before the movement phase. The Nexus ship and the escort squadron should be unable to take special orders.

Ship Rules

Nexus Ships: The Tassadar Dreadnought is a Nexus Ship and may use all the rules listen in the special rules section
relevant to them.
Energy Whips: Any enemy ordinance that travels within 15cm of a Tassadar Dreadnought count as traveling through a
blast marker.
Massive Turrets: The Tassadar Dreadnought may use its turrets on any ordinance that contact it during any turn, even if it
has defended against a different type of ordinance that turn.
Upgraded Photon Batteries: The Aiur Super Carrier is never affected by long range when shooting it's Photon Batteries.

Energy whips seem a bit over kill, change the name of massive turrets... massive turrets sounds like weapons batteries maybe advanced defensive grid? Photon batteries see above :D


Nexus Ships: The Auir Super Carrier is a Nexus Ship and may use all the rules listen in the special rules section relevant
to them.
Upgraded Photon Batteries: The Aiur Super Carrier is never affected by long range when shooting it's Photon Batteries

Same


Cybernetic Infrastructure: If the Guardian Cybernetics Carrier attempts and fails it's roll to relaunch
ordinance, they are still able to launch 3 attack craft from one side only. The failed roll is still
considered a failed attempt.
Upgraded Photon Batteries: The Guardian Cybernetics Carrier is never affected by long range when
shooting it's Photon Batteries

+1 to reload ordinance seems better than giving them half as many no matter what, for that matter give this too all protoss carriers, they're all going to have cybernetic factories for the attack craft

Nexus Ships: The Arbiter Cloaking Vessel is a Nexus Ship and may use all the rules listed in the special rules section
relevant to them.
Psionic Matrix Depletion: If a squadron passes it's leadership to use it's Nexus Warp, the Arbiter Cloaking Vessel's  Front
Photon Batteries will only fire at strength 6 this turn do to depletion of its Psionic Energies.
Cloaking Field: When a squadron uses the Arbiter Cloaking Vessel's nexus warp, it becomes cloaked; until the player's
next turn, the escort squadron count's as being under the Brace For Impact special order without any of it's negative
effects. The escort squadron is only actually considered cloaked after it warps within 10cm of the Nexus Ship with this
ability.

BFI negatives to the Arbiter if attempted, successful or not, seems more appropriate. All ships within 10cm of the Arbiter count as cloaked (receiving a 4+ save) Arbiters may never cloak including when within range of another Arbiter.

Sentinels: Protoss Dragoon Destroyers shooting at ordinance hit on a 4+ instead of the usual 6

Flak frigate ok?


I would probably look into making the terrans straight 6+ or 5+ and drop the deflector deal and then leave the toss @ 5+ or drop them to 4+ their escorts should be 4+ either way. why don't the terrans have Novas (Yamatos?). Terrans Frigate/Destroyer 4 torps 45 pts (just makes me think of the Valkyrie).
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 04:03:20 AM by AndrewChristlieb »
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2012, 04:55:30 AM »
Ok so summary of the ideas presented so far...

-cheap rerolls but standard leadership (fine but I don't see why Protoss should have the leadership of an Imperial and not Eldar or even AdMech)
-no +1 boarding
-drop shield special rules and replace with higher shield amount (I was advised against this originally but it's worth investigating)
-Photon Batteries should get to roll the firepower amount against the enemy armor (I will chew on that. sounds like in interesting option. I'm still not against the written version at this point)
-Change Prismatic Beam (I'm thinking this would be better as just lances. I would have a hard time restricting them to very few ships because lots of the models have 2 lance type thing on the front)
-Gateway... cool
-drop bombers altogether (I would personally rather not, though the torpedo-fighter thing is interesting. Not sure what you mean by dropping interceptors and replacing them with WBs instead, Andrew)
-nexus warp happens in the special order phase immediately when the order is passed and the nexus ship and the warped escorts are at BFI negatives.
-instead of "Cybernetic Infrastructure," give +1 to RO of Protoss carriers.
-Arbiter cloaking (it looks like, instead of the escort attack and then warp out technique, the Arbiter with cloaking would be a way to use the nexus warp to bring escorts back to a safer place behind the fleet and receive the cloaking if the player things they may be in danger. I like it. any other tactical uses you can see with changing when the nexus warp happens?)
-flak frigate "ok?"

Tassadar needs a complete scratch and redo. I think the others can be tweaked after the rules changes. Of the old rules, the stuff I would like to keep the most (though not dead set on them) would be the battery rules. As I am nearing the end of this text wall, I am starting to think the torpedo-fighter would be pretty cool. Protoss have no torpedoes and so instead of bombers and regular torpedoes, they would have the fighters offer the ordinance they do not have. Would they just be regular torpedo-fighters or have any extra rules with them? Tomorrow (which I have off), I will start to work with these ideas.

What do you guys think about this...
-weapon batteries as they were (I do think Protoss should have some more advanced guns and I think it should be this. the original plan was to give them a left shift but that was too much like Eldar)
-prismatic beams as normal lances, only longer range on battleships (maybe something special about these? I just don't want them to be too unique because most of the models have what I would like to portray as the prismatic beams on the prow)
-nexus ship as above
-even lower hits but more regular shields (a 6 hit 3 shield would not be a light cruiser but more like their heavier ones)
-carriers have +1 reload (with points compensation)
-I still think that +1 leadership makes sense
-limits on bigger ships comparable to other races (duh, I don't know how that was missed)
-the restrictions about the dark templar and regular protoss seemed nice for a while but seems unnecessary.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2012, 12:49:28 PM »
Sorry with the intercepters I was thinking like the in game style. The intercepters fire a low power energy blast that is good at damaging all types of vehicles. They're also drones and have a limited range but can attack in any direction. So intercepters would be standard weapon batteries (they are quite good at destroying capitol ships in game) with fighter range (30 cm) but they can fire in all arcs (they are still like fighters just a hugh swarm of tiny ships)

So the average ship for me would be:

Protoss Carrier 125 pts

Cruiser/6. 20cm speed. 45* turns. 3 shileds. 4+ armor. 3 turrets.

Interceptors: 30cm range. 8 firepower. N/A fire arc

Port launch: 25cm (scout). 1 strength. N/A fire arc

Star launch: 25cm (scout). 1 strength. N/A fire arc

« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 12:52:51 PM by AndrewChristlieb »
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 03:38:28 PM »
What I still don't understand is when you say they are weapon batteries with fighter range 30cm. Would they count as 1 fighter? Why not just make them flak type weapon batteries like the firedagger has so they can target ordinance well?

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 01:27:37 AM »
I don't see why they couldn't be "flak".
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 02:42:26 AM »
Ah, gotcha.

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 02:59:38 AM »
Ok so I am back to work on the Protoss fleet.

Andrew, your remarks about Interceptors being good fighters and capable of destroying ships, my wouldn't they just be considered fighter-bombers?

Also, if Void Rays were a type of ordinance in the fleet, would they be bombers? That was the original idea and I still think it makes sense. What I would like to do is make Void Rays available on only a few ships, probably 2 of them.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Starcraft Protoss in BFG
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2012, 04:40:59 AM »
Fighter bombers would work for the interceptors, my only intention with what I said originally was to inject a bit of originality into the fleet with the all around "weapons batteries".

I don't know about the void ray tho I always thought of them more as a frigate something along the size of a valkyrie from brood war. Really they're very similar to the Eldar escorts (especially their weapon which is basically a pulsar lance in function).
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.