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Author Topic: Armageddon Fleet 3k  (Read 7801 times)

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Offline wargame_insomniac

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2011, 09:00:57 PM »
I think for my Armageddon fleet I am going to pass on the Dominator. My dislike of it may be irrational given the love it seems to be getting from many people, guys who who probably know the game better than me. But I am not a fan.

But if I change my mind i already have the option of using my painted Dominator from my Gothic sector fleet. I don't mind the fact that reserve ships would be different colours- and if anything think would look good.

So as a target for painting this fleet, the consensus seems to be Lunar/Lunar over Tyrant/Tyrant.

Thanks

James

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2011, 09:38:31 PM »
The thing is that I have never been that keen on Dominator. It feels too contracdicatory to me- a long ranged prow weapon and then short ranged broadsides. It is neither a sniper or a pure knifefighter.

For me having a Tyrant with NC and Dominator with torps would make much more sense.

Hence my reluctance to do Dominator/Gothic. My Gothic sector fleet has a pair of Lunars. I was just trying to do something different.

The Dominator's weaponry is actually very well optimised. Consider: you're playing against a Chaos fleet and his ships are presenting their beam to you. You, as an IN player are presenting your armoured prow. The NC actually gives you the advantage of range initially, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that you will close with the enemy shooting the NC on the way in, until you get to within 30cm and the NC cuts out. At this point your broadsides kick in. Since you're moving towards his line and he's moving across your line you're actually going to break his line, which will give you 12WB against a 5+ closing cap ship on the one side and 12WB against a 5+ moving away capital ship on the other. Given a 20cm maximum movement and a 30cm starting distance it's fairly likely that you'll even be able to move straight into close range. Given you won't be hampered by any Reload orders you'll likely even be on LO. In which case you go straight from being an artillery ship to being the premier knife fighting IN cruiser. Not bad at all for just 190 pts.

The Dominator is the cheapest NC ship in both absolute and relative terms. It has no inefficiencies at all. It's firepower is maximised, it wastes no points on range, its role is clear and it has no need to RO or even AAF. As an artillery vessel it passes the advantage of range, and therefore initiative, to the IN player and also furnishes the IN player with a psychological weapon in the form of the NC.

On the other hand a Tyrant equipped with a NC costs a minimum of 205 pts, which is 15 pts more than a Dominator. It has less firepower and the same effective broadside range (4WB isn't going to do much in the 45cm range bracket). This makes the Tyrant completely outclassed by the Dominator. With the range upgrade and NC the Tyrant costs 215pts, 25 pts more than the Dominator and it still has less firepower.

The only advantage is the 10WB in the 30-45cm range band (which is only worth ~7 non-range shifted WB). However, to use this range you must turn to present your broadside. There are 2 ways to do this. Go completely parallel in order to maintain your range advantage (forcing them to come to you) or to approach obliquely. In the first case you get no value from your prow armour and will have no target for your prow weaponry. This will maximise the value of range, but you'll be getting very very little for your points and will have completely wasted the 20 pts for the NC upgrade. If however you approach obliquely you'll be able to fire your prow weapon at one target and your broadsides at another. However, this will reduce the efficacy of the extra range, by virtue of the fact that you'll only get one turns fire in the 30-45cm range bracket. Since you'll be approaching slower than with a direct-on Dominator it will also likely mean that you won't get to the 15cm range bracket as fast, and not break the enemy line as fast, if at all and even then will likely require course corrections. So you'll get one shot at 45cm (abeam target) and one shot at 30cm (abeam target) compared to one shot at 15cm to two targets (closing/moving away) on LO, with more firepower.

The difference in efficacy between these two (fairly standard) scenarios is huge. The Dominator is so clearly the winner that it's not funny. Cost, firepower, role and efficiency are all in the Dominator's favour.

Dominator is 190 points. I can get 2 upgraded Tyrants with 45cm range for 195 points each.

Yes, and if you really want torps and WBs then this is probably the best option. If the Tyrant had an option to replace its 4WB@45cm with 6WB@30cm then this would be a reasonable ship. It'd be 5 pts overpriced, but it would at least allow someone to take a torp/WB ship without losing too much.

Quote
If my 2 Armageddons, 1 Mars and 1 Dicator are also looking to keep their distance, then 45cm WB range fits in nicely?

Not 'nicely'. I listed 3 main problems with the Tyrant in my earlier post. It is 1) expensive, 2) weak, and 3) the range is ineffectual. This last reason has itself 3 causes. They are 1) WBs don't do so well at range (~30% efficiency decrease), 2) range conflicts with role, and 3) there is no support for range from the other cruisers.

Having a large proportion of battlecruisers with 45cm only obviates the last of these. Tyrants still suck because they're still too expensive, still too weak and still unsuited to extra range due to inefficiency and role conflicts.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:59:06 PM by Sigoroth »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2011, 10:09:50 PM »
I like tyrants but there's no reason to take them in your fleet. The tyrants are best used to flank while another force brakes the line and then only in larger games. You already have 3 ships with 45cm range you can use for this. If you want something different take a pair of gothics. Now that's an effective psychological weapon right there :D.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline wargame_insomniac

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2011, 10:17:43 PM »
Sigoroth

Thanks for explaining in such detail- I know you have touched upon these points in earlier posts but it helped me undertsand by the way you expalined it. Thanks very much

James

Offline wargame_insomniac

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2011, 10:24:45 PM »
Thinking about all of the replies has convinced me to drop the Tyrant+Tyrant idea. Instead i will go for the other suggestion of Lunar + Lunar.

That will give me 2 pairs each of Armageddon + Lunar (Big bro, little bro) plus Mars + Dictator..
Screened by Flachions, supported by Emperor/Apocalypse, with a couple of SM vessels for variety.

Thanks

James

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2011, 10:27:21 PM »
Sigoroth

Thanks for explaining in such detail- I know you have touched upon these points in earlier posts but it helped me undertsand by the way you expalined it. Thanks very much

No worries.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2011, 06:37:53 AM »
Thinking about all of the replies has convinced me to drop the Tyrant+Tyrant idea. Instead i will go for the other suggestion of Lunar + Lunar.

That will give me 2 pairs each of Armageddon + Lunar (Big bro, little bro) plus Mars + Dictator..
Screened by Flachions, supported by Emperor/Apocalypse, with a couple of SM vessels for variety.

Forming squadrons of Armageddon/Lunar would be fine if you're going to use the Lunar as a meat shield for the Armageddon, but otherwise the range disparities make it a suboptimal choice. Having one squadron with 12WB@45cm and one with 12WB@30cm is better than two with 6WB@45cm + 6WB@30cm. The same is true for the broadside lances, but to a lesser degree.

Offline wargame_insomniac

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Re: Armageddon Fleet 3k
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2011, 11:40:50 AM »
Thinking about all of the replies has convinced me to drop the Tyrant+Tyrant idea. Instead i will go for the other suggestion of Lunar + Lunar.

That will give me 2 pairs each of Armageddon + Lunar (Big bro, little bro) plus Mars + Dictator..
Screened by Flachions, supported by Emperor/Apocalypse, with a couple of SM vessels for variety.

Forming squadrons of Armageddon/Lunar would be fine if you're going to use the Lunar as a meat shield for the Armageddon, but otherwise the range disparities make it a suboptimal choice. Having one squadron with 12WB@45cm and one with 12WB@30cm is better than two with 6WB@45cm + 6WB@30cm. The same is true for the broadside lances, but to a lesser degree.
Understood- thznks for the feeback- it has been a big help in finalising selection of my fleet. Now I have worked out what I want to do with the complete fleet, I cab start painting a couple of cruisers to test the Armageddon sector paint scheme.

Thanks very much

James