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Offline jchaos79

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Crusaders
« on: October 02, 2011, 09:57:08 PM »
Hi, there is a point in the armylist of Kingdom of Jerusalem that I feel little strange:

Crusader knights has 3 attacks    3 hits    and save roll 5+   cost 110   special knights

There is a dwongrade as crusaders on foot who has  3 attacks    3 hits   and save roll 4+   cost -35   special slow

The usual rule with save rolls are if the unit is mounted then better one unit for the save roll.

I see strange that crusader on foot improves the armour of crusader knights.

¿is this a erratum? ¿do you think this is normal for the list?

Offline Happymcclap

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 01:39:38 AM »
Good spot, i'd never have noticed, its not in the official Errata but i think it must be considered a mistake, although they do gain the "Slow" rule which goes someway in counterung the armour gain.

Offline Lex

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 09:44:30 AM »
I see strange that crusader on foot improves the armour of crusader knights.

I does make sense, as the coherency of the unit will become must larger they will gain added "protection" from forming up, but the unit as such would be more "unwieldy"  hence the "slow"  modifier.

Offline Happymcclap

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 09:18:11 PM »
A reasonable enough explanation Lex and i can see the thinking behind it, however if that was the case then why do other units that  have a dismounted alternative to the mounted unit not receive this "cohesion" bonus to armour or any bonus for that matter?

Offline Lex

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 09:38:48 PM »
Well I was just extrapolating on the info (and some of the design discussions we had before), but to answer that one...

what other dismounted unit would warrant gettin better armour AND slow ??


Offline Happymcclap

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 11:23:00 PM »
Im not saying any particular unit deserves the bonus im just trying to rationalize why this particular unit deserves to gain an armour bonus when all other dismounted variants (at least the ones i am familiar with) do not.

If we were to take your explanation (which as i said, i think is a reasonable enough reason for the stat modification) then surely that explanation (ie a bonus applied to troops for dismounting due to them being in a more protective and cohesive formation) should apply almost universally to all dis-mounted variants. Is there any reason why my WOTR dismounted Men at arms on foot are any less cohesive than Crusader knights on foot? And if not, why do they not get a bonus?

Offline Lex

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 08:14:36 AM »
Nope, no other reason then possibily something background/fluff related.

Which means that there should be two variants of dismounted (heavy) knights then I guess

1) same armour, no special rules
2) better armour, slow

??

It would make a nice distinction to some lists

Offline fracas

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 05:59:30 PM »
Why not make the cohesion bonus an elite unit upgrade
One per army or such

Offline jchaos79

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 06:43:20 PM »
Well the option slow and 4+ armour I think is for Extra heavy infantry. I do not see XII century kinghts on foot (usually a mailcoat + helmet + handweapon + shield not too large) with this stats.

They do not has a cohesion type of fight on foot known, as phalange, shieldwall, etc... (as far as I know) the christian knights use to fight on foot as single warriors and as a singular combat.

The special type of fight they develop and they train as a unit is mounted the cavalry charge with the lance "en ristre".

When I think in extra heary Infantry I think in large shield (comet or hoplons or roman types) + armour with a infantry close formation trained or another posibility the full metal armour of XV XVI century kinghts.

In my humble opinion:
XII century kinght with chainmail + shield+ helmet fit me better with 5+. When mounted they improve one degree of armour 4+ (as a rule not written but known in warmaster).

In other forums they give some ideas that do not satisfied me too much because I think warmaster is not in this type of detail and the beautifull of warmaster is that the details are ripped off to get the idea or philosophy of the combat unit as a simply stats that work well with a simple rules:

- Medieval mounted knights are more vulnerable to arrows so if they are dismounted they improve the save
- Medieval on foot kinghts improves his save because when mounted the horse do not have armour .
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:53:33 PM by jchaos79 »

Offline Edmund2011

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 10:40:19 PM »
They just converted the mounted knight to Heavy Inf (75pts) pag 134 WMA.

Yes, it is strange to have better armour save on foot, i don't like it that way either. I would change them to inf with 5+ save, I think it reflects better the crusade warrior stat.

If you prefer to keep the 4+ dismounted, then I would change the mounted option for the crusader knights of the teutonic list (4+ 135 pts)



 



« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:58:22 PM by Edmund2011 »

Offline Happymcclap

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Re: Crusaders
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 08:06:05 PM »
Edmund2011, i think that is the simplest fix along with a corresponding change in the points cost.