November 13, 2019, 07:14:23 PM

Author Topic: Chaos Lords in campaign games.  (Read 2470 times)

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Offline Eldercat

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Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« on: June 01, 2011, 04:56:50 PM »
It says that the fleet commander and your fleet re-rolls are determined by renown, but it does not talk about the chaos ability to buy Lords.

It doesn't make sense to have the fleet commander be less capable than the 3 Lords you can buy to add to random ships. I want to restrict the use of Lords, but I don't play Chaos, and don't know how much that would mess up a Chaos fleet.

Can you/would you allow Chaos Lords in a campaign fleet?

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 07:23:10 PM »
I don't think you can even purchase them based on the strictest reading of how you build your fleet roster and select ship from it when playing a campaign because you aren't actually picking anything from the fleet lists. The best you can do is whatever upgrades are listed in the ship profiles.
-Vaaish

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 10:02:00 PM »
You can take secondary characters. Your roster is selected from your race's list as per normal with the exception of the FC. You select your fleet from your roster.

As to whether or not I'd allow people to do so, yes, I don't see why not. Characters aren't terribly impressive most of the time.

Regarding the apparent incongruity of secondary commanders having higher Ld than their FC, I don't really see a problem with this. There could be a good number of reasons for this. Politics can see a less competent or skilled person assume command. This could be due to personal charisma, nepotism, inheritance,  machinations, or as a matter of policy (fast tracking certain promising officers over more experienced personnel). The FC could even have been the best candidate at the time, and promoted to lead a large force, while the secondary character might have joined later with a much smaller force. Also, the extra burden of coordinating an entire fleet, as opposed to a ship or squadron, may lead to a dip in apparent efficacy. So any Ld 8 secondary character given the task might also drop down to Ld 7. Lots of possible scenarios. All this doesn't even take into account the fact that Ld doesn't really represent tactical capability, not in-game anyway. It's more a reflection of crew competence.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 04:04:40 AM »
Sig, I can't find anything in the campaign rules that say you use a fleet list at all to select your roster. The Fleet Register says to just list the ships you have purchased with no mention of using the fleet lists. When you actually fight, you are told to choose ships from your fleet registry as they are listed after you decide on a point value. There's just no mention of using the fleet lists at all in a campaign.
-Vaaish

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 09:44:42 AM »
Sig, I can't find anything in the campaign rules that say you use a fleet list at all to select your roster. The Fleet Register says to just list the ships you have purchased with no mention of using the fleet lists. When you actually fight, you are told to choose ships from your fleet registry as they are listed after you decide on a point value. There's just no mention of using the fleet lists at all in a campaign.

How do you think your fleet roster is formed? What's to stop someone with a Chaos fleet from using Necron and Eldar ships? When you form your roster you use the same fleet selection criteria as you would for a one off game, with the exception of the FC. When you play games you are restricted to ships from this roster, with no other restrictions. So, for example, if your 2000 pt roster includes the Planet Killer and you're going to play a raid scenario (750 pts) you can use the Planet Killer, even though you would not be able to fit it into such a small fleet in one off games.

Offline fracas

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 12:11:40 PM »
I agree that the fleet list should be the basis for the fleet roster
But that you choose from the roster for your game

Otherwise your roster could be all battleships for instance
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 12:13:49 PM by fracas »

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 03:01:48 PM »
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How do you think your fleet roster is formed? What's to stop someone with a Chaos fleet from using Necron and Eldar ships?
Sig, that's not an answer. Not using the fleet lists doesn't mean you'd suddenly use stuff that's not part of your race. The rules still make it clear that it's not a conglomeration of races in your roster. 

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When you form your roster you use the same fleet selection criteria as you would for a one off game, with the exception of the FC.

From the campaign rules the roster is formed by listing all the ships you own for your race up to 2k points or as close as you can get. Nothing is mentioned about using the fleet lists for this. You can't just assume because one of games use the fleet list the campaign roster does too.

If the intent was to use the fleet list for the roster, fine, but it needs to be specifically listed rather than assumed. At this point it sounds more like assumption on your part that the fleet lists are used here. I was hoping that there had been a ruling on it at some point or that there was something I missed in the rules.
-Vaaish

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2011, 06:19:15 AM »
Sig, that's not an answer. Not using the fleet lists doesn't mean you'd suddenly use stuff that's not part of your race. The rules still make it clear that it's not a conglomeration of races in your roster. 

What's to stop someone using nothing but battleships then? Indeed, what about multiple Planet Killers? Without a fleet list there is no structure at all. When you choose your faction you select your fleet list. So you're not just choosing "Chaos" as your fleet, you're choosing "Chaos Incursion Fleet" or "13th Black Crusade Fleet", etc.

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From the campaign rules the roster is formed by listing all the ships you own for your race up to 2k points or as close as you can get. Nothing is mentioned about using the fleet lists for this. You can't just assume because one of games use the fleet list the campaign roster does too.

It does not say that you "list all ships you own up to 2,000 pts". It says that IN and Chaos start with 2,000 pts and Eldar and Orks start with 1,500 pts. Common sense would dictate that you would need to buy these ships from a fleet list and therefore have to abide by the restrictions of that list. After all, it might be possible for a ship to cost more or less in a different fleet list. For example, unrestricted Heroes might cost 200 pts in a subsequent Tau fleet list. With no fleet lists being used, which point cost is right? According to your approach the Tau player could take them without restriction at 180 points.

Also note that when these campaign rules were written there were only 4 factions (IN, Chaos, Eldar, Orks) and only 1 fleet list for each of these races. Therefore it isn't much of a stretch to assume that when they say IN gets 2,000 pts that you select these ships by using the tool provided to do so.

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If the intent was to use the fleet list for the roster, fine, but it needs to be specifically listed rather than assumed. At this point it sounds more like assumption on your part that the fleet lists are used here. I was hoping that there had been a ruling on it at some point or that there was something I missed in the rules.

There has been a ruling on it. Ages ago. The ruling was that you didn't need to maintain your fleet list restrictions when selecting ships from your roster for a battle.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 11:39:57 AM »
I think I remember that. Fleet list is used when making your roster but when you play in the campaign, you don't need to follow the fleet lest. You can have a battleship and a cruiser and the rest of the points filled out with escorts if you wanted to. At least that was my understanding.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Chaos Lords in campaign games.
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2011, 03:24:19 PM »
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What's to stop someone using nothing but battleships then? Indeed, what about multiple Planet Killers? Without a fleet list there is no structure at all. When you choose your faction you select your fleet list. So you're not just choosing "Chaos" as your fleet, you're choosing "Chaos Incursion Fleet" or "13th Black Crusade Fleet", etc.

If they have enough battleships or planet killer models, then nothing but it would make some scenarios impossible for them to complete since they would have to abide by the rules for the scenario they roll. All battleships make it hard to do cruiser clash.

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It does not say that you...

Sorry, I was just summarizing the second paragraph with the point value from the first.

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There has been a ruling on it. Ages ago. The ruling was that you didn't need to maintain your fleet list restrictions when selecting ships from your roster for a battle.

Ok then. That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
-Vaaish