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Author Topic: Any news?  (Read 19896 times)

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Offline Zelnik

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2011, 08:42:24 PM »
Work alongside the navy? Not likely.

Most navy admirals would loathe the presence of grey knights ships. They tend to kill any normal humans they work with to prevent knowledge of what they fight from spreading.

other space marines? not likely, mostly for the same reason. The presence of the grey knights would suggest that the Inquisition does not think the chapter suitable for the task at hand, which is a pretty significant insult.


Offline Snakeb1te

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2011, 10:15:19 PM »
True, but if we're talking about Grey Knights we're talking about space marines being deployed to combat demons. I'm not sure the Inqusition would tell the Grey Knights to deploy one of their biggest ships (which is meant to carry the chapter's soldiers more than anything else) just to combat a fleet in space. I get the feeling another force would be requisitioned instead.

As such I don't really see the grey knights as a fleet option to be honest, only situations where they are deployed somewhere and they end up in a fleet battle; not being specifically deployed to one. Therefore using this logic, a battle barge would only be in use if a huge number of grey knights needed to be sent somewhere (Cadian Gate? Armageddon 1st war?) and as people have said, the grey knights are really thinly spread out.

I understand the need for a Grey Knights army fleet list though, I'm not saying they should be removed. I'm just saying that fluff wise I'm not too sure a/the Grey Knights battle barge would be used that often if at all.

(Btw just to add that the reason I imagine Grey knights working in tandem with other fleets, is because imagine they are sent to a warzone already occupied by IG and SM, because of a sudden emergence of daemons. The IG and SM have occupied it for months. In this situation all forces would have to work together, and if a fleet battle occurred the Knights would be part of it. This is how I envision the Grey Knights taking part in fleet battles. I wouldn't think that they would be despatched on their own just to fight one.)

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2011, 11:26:32 PM »
It will stand, mostly because its a good idea to allow players who are geeked out about grey knights,  but since I was the big pusher for the barge back when we were working on it, let me explain my mentality.

1. There is a new grey knights codex, not giving them something big and glittery would be extremely short sighted and a quick way to turn people away from the fleet.

I don't see what has that got to do with fluff but sure, for GK players, a nice, big ship could be given. But even a ship the size of a battlecruiser should be fine and not as huge as a battle barge.

2. Grey knights are the ones sent in to eradicate other space marine chapters who have been determined to be excommunicate. These chapters usually have fortress monistary's, two battle barges, planetside bases and fleets of strike cruisers and escorts.  Not giving them something that can stand up to battleship level fire is just contrary to their purpose.

It's why they can call on the IN. They're the ones who are supposed to handle the topside while the GK and other ground pounders handle the groundside.

3. They are still a space marine chapter, and the only one fielded on Titan. The idea that they would not have a barge with Mars so close by baffles me. When you have the best equipment and tech priests at your fingertips, you never, ever say "no no, we want something smaller."

But who's going to man it? Servitors? If that's the case, its pointless. It'll just be shot out of space by other SM chapters. A cruiser sized ship already requires thousands of conscripts. What more a Battlebarge?

4. When dealing with large demonic threats, like demon worlds or demonship fleets, strike cruisers and escorts alone would be easily outmatched. Without access to battleship level defense or attack, they would not be able to do their job.

Lucky for us there's still no feasible daemonship fleet. Even then, the GK can still handle the lot of them if they are gathered together. That's how cheesy they are. And again, they do have access to battleship sized ships and large fleets. It's called the IN.

5. Its a damn pretty ship! I just wish we had the psy-cannon on the prow.

Yes, this is the only reason that would allow for the existence of one, esp if it followed the lines of the FW SC. Psycannon is too powerful I think depending on which iteration. I can imagine the Psycannon working something like an NC, doesn't scatter or does more damage (D6+2 for example) and does something nasty vs daemonships but that's about it.

Work alongside the navy? Not likely.

Most navy admirals would loathe the presence of grey knights ships. They tend to kill any normal humans they work with to prevent knowledge of what they fight from spreading.

Sure they would if the Inquisition tells them to.

other space marines? not likely, mostly for the same reason. The presence of the grey knights would suggest that the Inquisition does not think the chapter suitable for the task at hand, which is a pretty significant insult.

This is probably true until they face a daemon which they cannot fight. Won't be as much of an insult then.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 11:36:16 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2011, 01:53:38 AM »
To answer an earlier question:  As cool as it would be, GK fluff makes no sense to have a GK battle barge.
For any reason.  Makes much less sense than SM with lances, if that tells you anything ;)

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2011, 05:49:43 AM »
I'm curious as to why it's assumed that the GK are smaller than other chapters. The new GK fluff in the codex seems to indicate that there are 1,000 of them just like any other chapter. Even though it would probably not be their usual transport, I don't see why they couldn't have a BB even if they would be far more scarce than in other chapters or rarely needed.
-Vaaish

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2011, 06:38:31 AM »
Final answer.

Matt Ward.

your arguments are invalid.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2011, 07:50:14 AM »
I'm pretty sure 'Matt Ward' is a valid argument to disregard anyone's fluff in 40k nowadays

If The Ward writes The Necron codex, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that they orchestrated the horus heresy. Not one bit.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 07:58:33 AM by Plaxor »

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2011, 07:56:52 AM »
Notwithstanding virulent Ward hate, the GK are still referred to as a chapter as far back as the Index Astartes article by Graham McNeill. There's no reason to have ever thought that the chapter was any smaller than typical for Space Marines and as such that they wouldn't have access to a battle barge like practically any other chapter although the typically small GK deployment size would point to battle barges being a far more rare sight.  
-Vaaish

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2011, 02:01:48 AM »
Laying aside my own 'MATT WARD!!! *mouth foaming here Moment of Hate here*

I'm having a hard time picturing a GK deployment bigger then strike cruiser myself.  I mean, this REALLY have to be heading for the sump if they need more then one company of GKs...
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2011, 04:01:19 AM »
Notwithstanding virulent Ward hate, the GK are still referred to as a chapter as far back as the Index Astartes article by Graham McNeill. There's no reason to have ever thought that the chapter was any smaller than typical for Space Marines and as such that they wouldn't have access to a battle barge like practically any other chapter although the typically small GK deployment size would point to battle barges being a far more rare sight.  

I don't really have much of an opinion on ancillary rules such as GKs, Inquisitors, RTs, wolf packs, etc, except to say that I think in general such elements should only be included for flavour and not overshadow the fleet action core of BFG.

Having said that, I don't think that the size of the GK chapter would have anything to do with their fleet resources. If they're never deployed in significant numbers then they have no need of a fleet. You don't build a cruiser to taxi 20 guys around. They also seem to be an arm of the Inquisition, rather than an autonomous body like other SM chapters. Presumably they'd get about in the same manner that Inquisitors do, by commandeering IN resources (i.e., hitch-hiking basically).

Just like the Inquisitor black ship, a GK BB seems to be simply added for the sake of it.

Offline Snakeb1te

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 05:42:42 AM »
Laying aside my own 'MATT WARD!!! *mouth foaming here Moment of Hate here*

I'm having a hard time picturing a GK deployment bigger then strike cruiser myself.  I mean, this REALLY have to be heading for the sump if they need more then one company of GKs...

This.

Quote
Just like the Inquisitor black ship, a GK BB seems to be simply added for the sake of it.

And this.

Then again, you don't HAVE to use it. So I ain't too fussed, just wondering why if it was included for fluff or gameplay reasons. Gameplay perhaps I can understand, but the arguments for fluff thus far have been unsatisfactory.

And Matt Ward is a tit

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward#Codex:_Grey_Knights

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2011, 12:44:47 AM »
GK don't operate as a standing army.  BB's seem counter intuitive to the MO of GK.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2011, 06:16:42 AM »
Quote
GK don't operate as a standing army.

To be fair, most marine chapters don't either. Usually it's a company that shows up from each chapter. It's a rare event that sees more Marines than one of their SC or escorts are capable of transporting. The largest I can find off hand outside of a black crusade is the Dark Angels deployment in the Siege of Vraks pt1. Something over 300 marines and they showed up with a battlebarge and two strike cruisers which was far in excess of the transport needed.

-Vaaish

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2011, 10:52:51 AM »
Note however, GK operate with their number much more less than a regular SM Company in a given area of operations.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Any news?
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2011, 07:30:26 PM »
Well, let me be more precise.  The function of a BB is a more concentrated grouping of marines, and also more formidable deep space fighting power, and capability at battering aside defenses, right?  Its a brute force mechanic that doesnt seem very GKish.  If SM are marines, GK are the navy SEALS.