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Offline Plaxor

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List of flawed ships
« on: November 29, 2010, 10:09:09 AM »
I have combined all my flawed ships threads into this one as they seemed to lose interest/were close to finished.

Confirmed Changes:
Chaos:
Despoiler: Use modified stats (Horizons)
Devestation: Lance range @ 45cm
Idolator: 'New Fraal tech'
Infidel: 2 turrets
Iconoclast: 25 points
Retaliator Side wbs @45cm, 6 launch bays. No free improved engines
Warmaster must be on the highest class of ship, not the most expensive.

IN:
Retribution: Side WBs fp18@45cm Cost 355
Apocalypse: Firing lances over 30cm causes blast marker to be placed on ships rear rather than critical. Dorsal Wbs to FP 9
Avenger: FP20@30cm cost 200
Tyrant: 180 base cost, 190 upgraded version
Endeavor/Endurance/Defiant: 6+ prow, maintains 90' turns
Dictactor: 210 points cost.
Dominator: 45cm upgrade @ -10 points
Oberon:Prow and Dorsal Weapons at 60cm, costs 355
Mars: Cost 260
Firestorms: Cost 35
Falchion 2 turrets
Defiant: +2 prow torps
Exorcist: 6lb cost 260 (+5 AB upgrade)

Astartes:
Strike cruiser: Now has assault carrier option, which swaps P/S weapons batteries for 1lb each @+15 points. As well as an option to swap prow lb with 3 torpedoes. 2 shields 1lb. Upgrade to replace prow LB with str. 3 Bombard F only for no points.
Battlebarge: Shields at 4, turrets at 4 Cost 440
RSV: Deleted
Gladius, cost 40
Nova cost 45


GCs: 25 points prow torp upgrade (6) no longer resists prow criticals if upgraded
Improved engines @ 5 points
20 point prow sensor array (see emperor)


Fleet list changes:

Bastions Fleet: No longer contains Endeavor Variants
Armagedon list: Loses RSV (as they no longer exist), however gains the Sword.


Confirmed Changes
Tau:
Hero: -2lances, -2FP (one each side), No longer restricted.
Merchant: 105pt cost, 6hits standard, upgrade to 8 hits for 20 points. +10 for lance variant

Corsairs:
Nightshade 50pts
Hemlock 50pts +1 f wb@30cm
Aconite 60pts
Hellebore: 80pts with profile change: 2wb, 1 pl, 1 fighter launch bay
Solaris: weapon range @45cm, no right shift.
Shadow: +2 torps, +2wb

Craftworld Eldar
Hero destroyed; Now just +25 point upgrade on characters
Flame of Asuryan-> Void Dragon CG loses vampires and aspect warriors. May upgrade vampires for +10 points. Permanent part of CWE list, restricted as 3:1 with cruisers.
Shadowhunter: old special rule. Speed bands +5cm, DE variant lance, +1wb, 45pts
Ghost Ships: Using MMS version with conversion for similarity to msm.
Wraithship: +5 point vampire upgrade.


Dark Eldar:
Mimic engines for free
Torture can buy two impalers for 20 points, not 2 for 20 each
The Torture carrying the fleet commander can upgrade its' hits by 2 for +35 points, if done so then it can purchase an additional weapon system.
Addition of Incubi Bodyguard on the Archon's ship; these add an additional +1 to the ships boarding modifier. 2d6 on teleport attacks pick which counts. +15 points
Addition of Wych Cult. Doubles boarding value +15 points.



Ork Changes
Gorbags Revenge: Prow torpedoes increased to D6+4, Cost 305
Kroolboy: +2wbs to p/s guns. 255 cost
Slamblasta: Lances changed to str d3+2, Cost 285
Hammer: No stats change, just upgrades added (as listed)
May reduce the strength of P/S Guns to 2, and add soopa engines for no cost
May replace p/s heavy guns for 1 launch bay (total 2) for +10 points

Kill-Kroozer: Prow guns increased to D6+6, P/S guns increased to D6+2. Torps made into a 10 point upgrade. Cost reduced to 150, Turrets upgraded to 2
Upgrades:
May reduce P/S guns to str 2 and add soopa engines at no cost
May replace P/S heavy guns with D6 torpedoes for free.
Of course may replace prow heavy guns for d6+2 torpedoes for 10 points


Terror ship: Prow weapons at D6+4, sides at D6+1. turrets upgraded to 2, Base cost 175
Upgrades:
May reduce P/S guns to strength 2 and add soopa engines at no cost.
May upgrade prow heavy guns to Str D6+2 torpedoes for 10 points.


Onslaught: 30 points firepower D6+1
Upgrades:
may exchange 1 firepower for soopa engines at no cost
may upgrade turrets to two for 5 points

Savage: 30 points, has soopa engines
May upgrade its turrets to two for +5 points

Ravager:
May swap 1 gun for soopa engines at no cost
May upgrade its turrets to three for 5 points

Brute Ramship:
May exchange 1 firepower for soopa engines at no cost
May upgrade its turrets to two for 5 points

all the escorts in a squadron must have the same upgrades. All soopa engines or none, all turrets or none etc.

Torpedo Bombers/Minelayers: use old cost upgrades (based on averages rather than max)

Warlord upgrades:

Maniak gunners: 10 points, may re-roll lance strength as well (in the case of the Slamblasta)
Looted Torpedoes: 10 points
Mad Meks: 10 points
Extra power fields: 20 points


Fleet lists:
2 new characters added:
Big Mek: Makes the ship replace one shield with D3, comes with a re-roll 40 points
Freeboota Kapitan: Adds +1 ld to the ship, comes with a re-roll 40points
Both characters are in the warboss category, so you may not include more than 1 character per 500 points. Each may take 'warboss upgrades' which with the big mek will make the shields go to d3+1, or d3+2 on bb/bc.

Pirates: Now includes Kroolboy, and Roks, may include all three character options but must include 1 freeboota kapitan if over 750 points as it's leader. Other two are 0-1 each.

WAAGH: May include all three characters, however it must include a warboss at 750 points or greater. Both other characters are 0-1


Mechanicus Changes

Archmagos Veneratus @ 75 points

Ark Mechanicus @390 pts
Emperor @385
Retribution @375
Oberon @375
Lunar, Gothic, Tyrant @200
Dictator @230
Endeavor/Endurance @125 Comes with 30cm dorsal lance (without sacrificing torps)
Defiant @135 Comes with lance, without sacrificing torps

Vessels no longer come with a free, randomly rolled gift of the ommnisiah, every vessel must purchase one

Emergency Energy Reserves: 15 points
Advanced Engines: 15 points
Fleet Defense Turrets: 10 points
Gyro Stabilized Targeting Matrix: 10 points
Repulsor Shielding 15 points
Augmented Weapon Relays: 30
Auto Reloaders: 25 points (makes a vessel able to do an additional order if they pass RO)

Firestorm, Gladius @35 points
Nova @40points
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 12:53:41 PM by Plaxor »

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 11:36:47 AM »
My comments and additions:
Devestation/Styx: Yup, the Dev needs an internal rebalance. Make it more expensive, or nerf range to 45cm. I see no reason a cheap CB can't be less expensive than an expensive CA.
Carnage/Murder: F/L/R wouldn't be game breaking.
Retaliator: No thoughts on this one
Despoiler: No thoughts on this one
Iconoclasts: Agreed, 5pt price drop.

IN:
Oberon: Desperately needs its 60cm range back.
Retribution: Horribly conflicted roles. At 60cm it's either outgunned by or barely outunns the carriers, and doesn't have AC. Closing with the cruisers it's nearly outgunned by an Armageddon, and doesn't need the 60cm range it's paying for. FP18 @45cm please.
Apocalypse class: The Critical Fix should be sufficient, but it would possibly be easier just to make it 45cm standard.
Emperor: Needs a 10-15pt price hike.
Overlord: Hideously undergunned. FP10 please.
Tyrant/Dominator: Possibly a 5pt price drop for the Tyrant.
Dictator/Mars: I actually prefer the Dictator! One RO Check gets you more. Both are overpriced, but deliberately. Hiking the Emperor's price may help.
Endeavor Variants: Need 6+ prows and 90' turns to make them proper Light Cruisers of the Line. Defiant needs torps to make it worth reloading. Willing to trade down S2 Lances to FP4 WBs to make this happen.
Firestorms: Agreed. Loss of L/F/R makes up for slightly increased firepower. Price drop of 5pts.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 12:26:45 PM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 11:57:17 AM »
Battleships:
IN
Oberon needs 60 cm WBs back as noted.
Ret needs to have firepower brought up while range goes down to 45 cm.

Chaos:
Despoiler needs to have armaments changed as per Horizon's suggestion.


Grand Cruisers:

Retaliator is the only GC that has a problem? You should have a look at the Avenger then. hideously overpriced. Retaliator should have it's weapons changed. Probably should have Str 3 LBs per broadside while weapons should all be at 45 cm.
Exorcist should also increase the LB stat. WBs are ok.
Vengeance and Executor also undercosted.

Battlecruiser:
Overlord should just have FP12@45 cm broadside.

Heavy Cruiser:
Styx cost needs to be lowered to 250.

Cruisers:
IN:
Dictator actually ok at its price.
Tyrant needs to make all 45 cm WBs as standard for the 195 points.

Chaos:
Dev undercosted for its performance. Lower to 45 cm the broadside lances at 200.




Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 12:14:33 PM »
Chaos
Despoiler: per Horizon's suggestion. :)
Devestation: lower lance range (45cm)

Imperial Navy
Retribution: per Revolution(!) str18 @ 45cm broadsides
Overlord: per admiral d'artagnan's suggestion
Tyrant: drop 5pts.
Dictator: might drop to 210.
Endeavour & Endurance: 90* / 6+ prow needed
Defiant: complete rehaul. PM me for stats. :)

Grand Cruisers
Avenger: cost drop, large margin!

Corsair Eldar
Aside of rules:
Hellebore: stat change (launch bay instead of tops).
Nightshade 50-60pts
Hemlock 50-60pts
Solaris: extended battery range (45cm)

Tau Armada ECF
Hero: drop of Ion cannons to 2, same points, done.
Merchant: hitpoint upping per standard.
Defender: 2hp escort (!)

Frigates & Destroyers (non-Eldar)
Before we start changing things with these I want more experience and playtest feedback and general "feel" on how the new assault boat rule will work. For instance the Iconoclast does not need a price drop.



« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 01:03:15 PM by horizon »

Offline Zelnik

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 02:04:34 PM »
All of these ships are very 'fuzzy logic' issues with balance. Here is my take.


Styx/dev: The HA made it clear that a Heavy cruiser cannot cost less then a cruiser. The only option is to reduce points to the styx... something i am not entirely against.

Carnage/murder: these ships are just fine thanks. They have different purposes in the fleet, as the murder is the only chaos vessel aside from the devistations that was built to squadron.  Carnages were designed for Independent action.

Retaliator: Yeah, at it's cost, it desperately needs better firepower. perhaps st 8 batteries.

Battleships: Aside from re-allocation of launch bays on the despoiler, your barking up the wrong tree. This is not likely something that will change.

Imperial navy battleships: Sheesh, again your barking up the leg of the wrong battle. The apoc has been fixed, and has now been made MUCH more effective now that it does not suffer damage.  When people start using the weapon overcharge, the complaints will end.

Retrib.. Eh i like it how it is. Perfect WYSWYG, fast battleship. if you want your st18, reduce speed to 15.

Oberon: Drop it. It does not need 60cm batteries. most conflicts close into the 45cm range without issue and it does not need to be elevated to 'best battleship ever'.  Right now it is the cheapest imperial battleship, and it is fine where it is.

Overlord: I won't resist a strength upgrade, but i am worried it will overpower the vessel.

Dictator: Bite me, i love this ship. Don't call something unpopular without asking other people in the community first.

Dominator: Unique to Gothic list, you don't get it elsewhere without reserves.

Endeavor variants: This issue is being addressed by the HA.

Firestorms: you sir, are quite mad.

Avenger: This ship works great when there are a pair in a squadron.  I suggest you give it a try sometime.


Tau stuff.
I won't comment on the cap ships. I have not used them aside from the explorer.
Don't you dare belittle the Dhow.  It's one of the best escorts in the game.
Warsphere: It's the Faberge' egg of doom!

orks:
Give the Hammer a better bombardment cannon strength, problem solved.


Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 03:46:45 PM »
I was going to just post my suggestions, but this post caught my eye and I felt I had to respond. I'll post my suggestions later.

Carnage/murder: these ships are just fine thanks. They have different purposes in the fleet, as the murder is the only chaos vessel aside from the devistations that was built to squadron.  Carnages were designed for Independent action.

What? Murders designed to squadron? Carnages designed to act alone? You have this arse backwards.

Quote
Retrib.. Eh i like it how it is. Perfect WYSWYG, fast battleship. if you want your st18, reduce speed to 15.

Firstly, not WYSIWYG at all. People look at the ship and expect 18 WBs. Therefore not WYSIWYG. Secondly, why would we decrease the speed when upping the strength? That defeats the point. We would decrease the RANGE, which is useless to the ship.

Quote
Oberon: Drop it. It does not need 60cm batteries. most conflicts close into the 45cm range without issue and it does not need to be elevated to 'best battleship ever'.  Right now it is the cheapest imperial battleship, and it is fine where it is.

The prow and dorsal weaponry on the Emperor is absolutely pathetic. The Oberon's combined prow and dorsal armament is surpassed by a CBs dorsal armament. Very similar strength, but lower range. This is ridiculous. This ship already has the worst armament in these hard points, there never was any reason to nerf them even further. It should never have been done, and it should be undone. The fact that it would become a comparable long range fire platform to a Retribution while also outputting AC just shows how shit the Retribution is.

The Ret is faster, has extra armour, a much stronger dorsal weapon and 9 torpedoes as opposed to the 4 AC of the Oberon. That is a fair amount of extras. It's just that none of them combine so well with the role of long range weapon platform as it does on the Oberon (and Empy). Thus the problem is with the Ret, not the Oberon, and so the comparison between the two should NOT be used to justify the further nerfing of the worst weapon strengths of any BB in prow and dorsal hardpoints.


Quote
Overlord: I won't resist a strength upgrade, but i am worried it will overpower the vessel.

Seriously? Are you high?

Quote
Dictator: Bite me, i love this ship. Don't call something unpopular without asking other people in the community first.

Hmm. 40 pts more than a line cruiser. Sooo if a Dev (even one with only 45cm lances) were to swap its AC for guns we're looking at a ship with 2L@30cmL+R, 2L@45cmL+R and 6WB@30cmLFR and 25cm speed for 150 pts. You fine with this?

Dictator is too expensive. 210 pts at most.

Quote
Firestorms: you sir, are quite mad.

No, he's right, they're rubbish. They have slightly more firepower than a Sword, for which they pay 5 pts more. This by itself is quite debatable. It means that across a full squadron you're paying 30pts for 6WBs. A bit much. Add to this the fact that it is pretty rubbish against either Eldar fleets, since it has a useless lance or SM style fleets since it has 40% of its weaponry in WBs. Making it only useful if you come up against one of the more general armour fleets (whereas a Sword, for example, is useful against Eldar or a general armour fleet).

Then add to all this the fact that it has to point its prow at the enemy to fire its lance you get a less able and less defensive unit. This ship really is overpriced. Hell, there's a case for the general argument that all escorts are overpriced. This one is overpriced on top of that.

Quote
Avenger: This ship works great when there are a pair in a squadron.  I suggest you give it a try sometime.

Why would I take this ship when I could take a Vengeance?

Offline commander

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2010, 04:58:45 PM »
I only play IN, so I'am not going to say anything about the other fleets.
The one thing that I complain about is that the IN in general is seriously overcosted.
Fluff says they are using less sofisticated technology, easier and cheaper to produce, less powerful weapons, cheaper weapon systems (missiles/torpedoes) etc because they needed to replace half of the fleet (Horus Herecy) as soon as possible. So why do they cost so much more than the more high-tech chaos vessels? It should be less.
I know, it's not going to happen  :'( I can live with that.

On topic: as far as the list goes, everything IN is allready covered.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2010, 05:53:27 PM »
Oh, one thing, the Murder should not get LFR on its prow lances. Not unless it gets a large price bump or Carnage gets all it's weaponry boosted to 60cm (not that I expect either of these changes).

The Murder is a cluncky ship and I personally prefer the Carnage. However, it is cheaper than the Carnage, so one would expect the Carnage to be slightly better. If you make the prow lances LFR you will make the Carnage completely redundant. About equivalent firepower at 60cm, superior at 45cm, equivalent at 30cm or less and just as defensive as the Carnage (can go abeam) while being cheaper. Bad idea.

Offline fracas

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 06:26:14 PM »
i think all ships should be flawed in some way.

i really do not want fleets of ships perfect for their role.


give it serious thoughts folks.
ships were designed by thoughts in reaction to perceived challenges and needs by hands guided by imperfect knowledge.
what we are risking here is applying omniscience of the meta game instead.
don't do it.


having said that, best way to "fix" "flawed ships" is to allow each fleet commander to take one refit and assign it to a ship of his choice. this will allow some rarely seen ships to be fielded.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2010, 06:51:45 PM »
We're not using flawed in that sense fracas. Well, not for the most part anyway. In most cases we're talking pure balance. In some cases we're talking role competition and redundancy. In particular cases (such as the Ret) we're talking stupendous flaws of design that should never have been in the first place.

There are some tolerable flaws. For example, the Emp/Ober prow and dorsal weapons are very very weak. They're nowhere near optimised. However, we're not suggesting replacing them with 3L@60cmLFR each. Suboptimal flaws can add character to the game. Even redundancy can be forgiven when we're talking old ships. So it wouldn't matter terribly if an Executor Exorcist was made redundant (for the most part) by a Dictator. However, a Retribution being made redundant by an Emperor or Oberon as a preferred gunship means that the Retribution needs fixing.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 11:52:31 PM by Sigoroth »

Offline fracas

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2010, 07:13:47 PM »
i understand
but there seems to be an underlying perception that ships should be perfectly balanced, which really isn't much differnet from being flawed free

i take a ret as my BB because it can keep up even if the emp may have a slight l edge in firepower, though slower and less armored.


just thought i throw a little word of caution out there.
carry on :)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2010, 08:04:46 PM »
Updated the first post to account for suggestions/thoughts.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2010, 08:20:05 PM »
The Emperor doesn't have a LITTLE edge in firepower. It has an edge big enough to pilot itself down. It has pretty much double the focussed Abeam firepower including AC. For a ship staying with the fleet, the Retribution outguns the Armageddon by just one lance and 3 torpedoes.  

I don't agree with this "not everything should be balanced" idea either. Sure, let there be old and outdated ships that are undergunned with no clear role. But it shouldn't be a handicap to take these vessels, and that's what the points system is for. If it turns out that something is worse than its stats would suggest, and fluff dictates that the profile shouldn't change, then that ship should get a price cut.

But all this is besides the point, because the Retribution is not old and outdated according to fluff. It is, along with the Emperor class, the shining pinnacle of His Imperial Navy. But it doesn't behave that way on the table. And it's not worse than the Emperor because AC are fundamentally better - it's worse because it is confused about its role and undergunned up close. Now it could get a price break, but that would be to accept it as an obsolete class of vessel, which it clearly isn't. What it needs is more firepower. FP18 at 45cm, and the loss of 60cm WBs. Job done.

Edit: A good revision to the first post. A couple of things though:

Retribution: Possibly leave Lances at 60 whilst dropping WBs to 45? Alternatively all to 45cm.

Dominator: Absolutely nothing wrong with it, 190pts is what you should be paying for FP12 and a forced Nova Cannon. Do Not Touch.
Tyrant: Price drop by 5-10pts.

Mars/Dictator: If the Emperor gets more expensive, then perhaps no price adjustment is required.

Avenger: What LBs? Perhaps raising just a portion of the WBs to 45cm would help. FP8 would be enough without competing with the Tyrant.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 08:40:53 PM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 10:08:15 PM »
I forgot to put in the Apocalypse. It wasn't fixed enough. Fluff says it only suffered problems when firing at long ranges. The Apoc should be able to fire up to 45 cm without any penalty.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 12:07:09 AM »
What [the Retribution] needs is more firepower. FP18 at 45cm, and the loss of 60cm WBs. Job done.

Retribution: Possibly leave Lances at 60 whilst dropping WBs to 45? Alternatively all to 45cm.

That is what I was thinking. I didn't include the lances in the range reduction.

Dominator: Absolutely nothing wrong with it, 190pts is what you should be paying for FP12 and a forced Nova Cannon. Do Not Touch.
Tyrant: Price drop by 5-10pts.

The issue here, as stated by others, is that then the tyrant would compete too much with the lunar. Although near-everyone upgrades the wbs, so the ship is almost as though it costs 195. Perhaps a compromise? -5 to the tyrant +5 to the Dominator?


Mars/Dictator: If the Emperor gets more expensive, then perhaps no price adjustment is required.

Possibly, I would like to hear others thoughts on this.


Avenger: What LBs? Perhaps raising just a portion of the WBs to 45cm would help. FP8 would be enough without competing with the Tyrant.

Oops, sorry. Typo. Will fix, I do like the Avenger though for it's current pc. It is worse than a Vengeance, but not that noticeably. I usually run one as the flagship in my IN.

I forgot to put in the Apocalypse. It wasn't fixed enough. Fluff says it only suffered problems when firing at long ranges. The Apoc should be able to fire up to 45 cm without any penalty.

Fixed.

Also, if we get this done well enough. I'll submit an article to Warp Rift, and try to convince Bluedagger to make an alternate selection for each fleet with these costs/stats. (Helps a bit to personally know the guy)