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Author Topic: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel  (Read 4212 times)

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Offline Sigoroth

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Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« on: October 13, 2010, 01:53:44 PM »
Sooooo, really would love this ship to be usable. Unfortunately it is too costly. The stats and rules are fine. Basically, this ship is a Lunar (180 pts) with longer range broadside lances (200 pts max), extra ordnance versatility at the expense of strength (no change), unique leadership rules (self-balancing), immunity to some celestial phenomena and BM movement penalty (210 pts), variable strength (1-8) short ranged lance (225 pts) and 8 prow WBs (250 pts maximum). However, it disengages when crippled. That's worth surely -20 pts, maybe -15. So this would make it, what, 230~235 pts?

Would like to know if this issue could be fixed. 255 pts is just so much to pay for a cruiser that will disengage after 4 hits. I know that in certain fleets (Tau, Demiurg, Kroot) or against Orks the disengage threshold drops to 2 hits, this is balanced by the higher VPs.

On the topic of way overpriced, can we also get a drop down of Xenos vessel cost to say, 40 pts? Or has this already been addressed?

Offline horizon

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 02:13:00 PM »
Ya, agreed.

Per new Rogue Trader draft (check the url which also holds Tau, Marine, FAQ drafts) the xenos vessel
is 50pts,
25cm speed - 90* turns - 1 shield - 5+ armour - 2 turrets

batteries 45cm str2 lft
lance 30cm str1 f

Free xenos upgrade.


(also the RT rules allow for limited acces to Castellans or Swords or other parent fleet escort with 2 shields at +5pts. That's funky.)

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 02:21:27 PM »
you also forgot the auto-LD 9, and the choice between torpedo's and strike craft.

we cannot "drop prices" so easy, the Bastion is a battlecruiser by all accounts, so sitting at 255, while a little high, is by no means the most expensive.

For the Tau, it fills a vital position that neither the Hero, nor the Protector can fill.  It also is the only ship aside from the Stronghold that gives Tau access to assault boats.  It's pricey for a reason :D

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 04:04:32 PM »
you also forgot the auto-LD 9, and the choice between torpedo's and strike craft.

we cannot "drop prices" so easy, the Bastion is a battlecruiser by all accounts, so sitting at 255, while a little high, is by no means the most expensive.

For the Tau, it fills a vital position that neither the Hero, nor the Protector can fill.  It also is the only ship aside from the Stronghold that gives Tau access to assault boats.  It's pricey for a reason :D

No, I didn't forget either of those things. The LD bonus is self-balancing, since it goes down as you take damage. And while the ordnance output is more varied it is also weaker, so this balances too. Also, while there are more expensive CBs out there, they (Styx/Mars) are themselves overpriced and can combine their "extra" firepower with their broadside and have long range fire. They also don't run away when they're crippled and you can hide them in squadrons with other, cheaper ships.

While the broadside lance range upgrade compared to a Lunar is nice, it isn't sufficient to allow us to start this ship abeam and rely on long range fire like we would a Chaos ship such as a Carnage or Devastation. The prow weaponry is nice, but it's really quite hard to utilise that cutting beam at only 15cm range, the more so at anywhere near full power. The torps being able to fire any arc is nice too, but since the prow weaponry doesn't combine with the side weaponry then this is pretty much like having a CB (it is the torps that combine instead of the weaponry). If the decision of whether to disengage and when was left to the player I could see paying 250 pts for this ship. Hell, even 255 would be doable. But with that auto disengage ... It really isn't worth taking. The Stronghold, on the other hand, is more reasonable but the Bastion is a good 25 pts overpriced. Too much.

Also, I feel it should be pointed out that this is not a Tau only ship. Many races have access to it. In fact, this ship pre-dates the Tau. As for being "pricey for a reason", well yes, that's true. Unfortunately the reason is that the person who pointed it at 255 was a dingbat.

Offline Caine-HoA

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2010, 09:11:18 PM »
I would support that it is to expensive

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 12:17:40 AM »
I would support that it is to expensive

I as well, the proposed cost is laughable.

The LD thing the Demiurg have I see as an overall weakness.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 05:51:25 PM »
you also forgot the auto-LD 9, and the choice between torpedo's and strike craft.

we cannot "drop prices" so easy, the Bastion is a battlecruiser by all accounts, so sitting at 255, while a little high, is by no means the most expensive.

For the Tau, it fills a vital position that neither the Hero, nor the Protector can fill.  It also is the only ship aside from the Stronghold that gives Tau access to assault boats.  It's pricey for a reason :D

No, I didn't forget either of those things. The LD bonus is self-balancing, since it goes down as you take damage. And while the ordnance output is more varied it is also weaker, so this balances too. Also, while there are more expensive CBs out there, they (Styx/Mars) are themselves overpriced and can combine their "extra" firepower with their broadside and have long range fire. They also don't run away when they're crippled and you can hide them in squadrons with other, cheaper ships.



 
Hi Sigoroth! This point is yet another reason the Citadel was created- hiding Bastions behind cheaper ships that also have a larger footprint. Also, the Styx was overpriced but play-tested comparably at 275, its current official point cost. The Mars seems to do really well for 270, and the targeting matrix for +15 points is far below what the refit would cost normally. I obviously canít speak for your experience with it, but I routinely use it as my fleet flagship, to the point that my sonís unofficial sub-plot for every game I use Imperials is ďKill the Imperious!Ē  :D

Quote


While the broadside lance range upgrade compared to a Lunar is nice, it isn't sufficient to allow us to start this ship abeam and rely on long range fire like we would a Chaos ship such as a Carnage or Devastation. The prow weaponry is nice, but it's really quite hard to utilise that cutting beam at only 15cm range, the more so at anywhere near full power. The torps being able to fire any arc is nice too, but since the prow weaponry doesn't combine with the side weaponry then this is pretty much like having a CB (it is the torps that combine instead of the weaponry). If the decision of whether to disengage and when was left to the player I could see paying 250 pts for this ship. Hell, even 255 would be doable. But with that auto disengage ... It really isn't worth taking. The Stronghold, on the other hand, is more reasonable but the Bastion is a good 25 pts overpriced. Too much.




 
There are a few things to take into account here. You canít take slide-rule profiling into account for a ship that is so outside the mainstream of the fleets it gets immersed with. First of all, all-around torps is supposed to be REALLY expensive- no other fleet can do this trick period! Another thing is that while the broadside and prow weapin fits are different, the prow weapon fit is significant enough that with the all-around torps, it behaves as a third broadside even more so than Space Marine capital ships. This is a rare and unique capability that can be a real game-changer when used with particular fleets.

Also keep in mind the unique capability of its shields. While navigation shields that ignore blast markers can be purchased as a refit in a campaign, only Demiurg shields not only ignore BMís but actually make them go away, absorbing them to fuel a weapon system to boot! Once again, this is a capability that comes with a premium that goes beyond its weapon fit.

I agree that for all its neat gimmickry, the cutting beam is junk because itís a 15cm weapon on a ship that moves 15cm; any idiot can avoid it. We tried to fix it by giving it an option for longer range because otherwise itís a point sponge that does absolutely nothing for the ship, which was never the intent for this weapon.

Quote


Also, I feel it should be pointed out that this is not a Tau only ship. Many races have access to it. In fact, this ship pre-dates the Tau. As for being "pricey for a reason", well yes, that's true. Unfortunately the reason is that the person who pointed it at 255 was a dingbat



Dingbat- guilty as charged.   :D  However, the profile for this ship was based on careful play-testing and taking to account not only how the Demiurgís unique capabilities (aside from its weapons) are quite special in and of themselves, but the fact that this ship also changes the dynamic of how an entire fleet can play. Take for example Chaos. Now a Chaos fleet of fast, mobile ships has within it this slow, plodding turtle that comes with an armored prow, torpedoes and some long-hitting weapons, with an even bigger bite if you get too close to it. It gets left behind as the rest of the fleet maneuvers, which means itís free to toss its torpedoes around in any arc and forcing the enemy to split its fire or work its way between the Bastion and the maneuvering Chaos fleet.

Iíll tell you one thing I did NOT take into consideration when building this profile. When I was tasked by Andy to put a cruiser profile together based on his Stronghold, I had absolutely no idea the model was going to be so tiny! My Citadel profile was an attempt to correct this when I finally got my hands on some pre-production examples of the model, but by then the Bastion profile was lined up for printing in BFG magazine and it was too late to change it. Because there was little noise about the Bastion after the fact and the model was apparently selling well, the profile was never changed for Armada.

- Nate




Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
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:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline Zhukov

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 06:12:59 PM »

The Bastion is a battlecruiser with some gimicks. 255 is perfect for it. The Citadel is the "light" cruiser that needed to come out a long time ago IMO. That is a ship that many people will use from what I can see.

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Offline Don Gusto

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 10:34:01 PM »
The Bastion is also ponderous and cannot CTNH.

But I too think the 255 points is ok. It has a lot of specials and pays for them. With the upgrade to the cutting beam it's really ok.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 04:50:33 AM »
Hey, I'd pay the price if it fought to the death like the rest of my fleet. I understand why it cuts and runs, but I don't see it being worth the price. As for the size of the model, I don't think that 8 hits is too bad. I know it's missing a bit of superstructure compared to IN or Chaos cruisers, but it's as long as one and wider. It does for me, as far as size is concerned. Maybe with the Citadel rules release people can add a little superstructure to their current ships to represent Bastions and cut down others to represent Citadels.

The range on the cutting beam I quite like. Yes it is a hunk of junk. Quite easy for the opponent to avoid, and in the rare instances where you do get to use it chances are it won't be powered up, since you can't hold BMs over from turn to turn. All these downsides to me make it real easy to just keep the cost low. They also make it that much more enjoyable when you do manage to get to fire with a powered up mining laser.

While on the topic of Demiurg, any thoughts on making up one of the RT Xenos vessel profiles as a Demiurg escort? I ask because the model supplied by SG really looks like it would fit the Demiurg, though I don't think the Xenos vessel rules quite fit (hence the need for an official profile). Maybe drop the cost and reduce the lance to a cutting beam (15cm range, max str 2). I imagine that these ships would be almost completely automated (Ld 7) with only a skeleton crew.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 02:03:17 PM »
Hey, I'd pay the price if it fought to the death like the rest of my fleet. I understand why it cuts and runs, but I don't see it being worth the price. As for the size of the model, I don't think that 8 hits is too bad. I know it's missing a bit of superstructure compared to IN or Chaos cruisers, but it's as long as one and wider. It does for me, as far as size is concerned. Maybe with the Citadel rules release people can add a little superstructure to their current ships to represent Bastions and cut down others to represent Citadels.

The range on the cutting beam I quite like. Yes it is a hunk of junk. Quite easy for the opponent to avoid, and in the rare instances where you do get to use it chances are it won't be powered up, since you can't hold BMs over from turn to turn. All these downsides to me make it real easy to just keep the cost low. They also make it that much more enjoyable when you do manage to get to fire with a powered up mining laser.

While on the topic of Demiurg, any thoughts on making up one of the RT Xenos vessel profiles as a Demiurg escort? I ask because the model supplied by SG really looks like it would fit the Demiurg, though I don't think the Xenos vessel rules quite fit (hence the need for an official profile). Maybe drop the cost and reduce the lance to a cutting beam (15cm range, max str 2). I imagine that these ships would be almost completely automated (Ld 7) with only a skeleton crew.


You would think with how uh ...similar the Xenos escort looks to the Demiurg ships at least in layout that it would make an acceptable ship. From the way I understand it, the Demiurg were the inspiration for the Xenos escort, but the designers (specifically Matt and Andy) stated no its definitely NOT a Demiurg escort, and furthermore the Demiurg as a fleet don't have escorts as part of ther theme and instead contract out such as the need arises, such as mustering for war. The Demiurg instead rely on their large quantities of ordnance-sized vessels in the manner others use escorts for the more routine tasks of scouting for resources, asteroid debris recovery and the like.

Could we fix this? Yes, I supposed we could, but why would we? It's definitely not broken. The Demiurg being forced to contract Xenos and other escorts for their war host is not only very themeful for this fleet and gives it a decided flavor, it also was the intent of the designers. It makes for a great excuse for a Demiurg fleet to have a squadron of six Xenos escorts of any flavor desired that's allowed by the Rogue Traders fleet list, don't you think?

- Nate



« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 02:04:57 PM by flybywire-E2C »
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 02:15:11 PM »
You would think with how uh ...similar the Xenos escort looks to the Demiurg ships at least in layout that it would make an acceptable ship. From the way I understand it, the Demiurg were the inspiration for the Xenos escort, but the designers (specifically Matt and Andy) stated no its definitely NOT a Demiurg escort, and furthermore the Demiurg as a fleet don't have escorts as part of ther theme and instead contract out such as the need arises, such as mustering for war. The Demiurg instead rely on their large quantities of ordnance-sized vessels in the manner others use escorts for the more routine tasks of scouting for resources, asteroid debris recovery and the like.

Could we fix this? Yes, I supposed we could, but why would we? It's definitely not broken. The Demiurg being forced to contract Xenos and other escorts for their war host is not only very themeful for this fleet and gives it a decided flavor, it also was the intent of the designers. It makes for a great excuse for a Demiurg fleet to have a squadron of six Xenos escorts of any flavor desired that's allowed by the Rogue Traders fleet list, don't you think?

- Nate
Matt is doing ?
Andy is doing Starcraft II

So what they think is invalid at the moment ;)

There is not really much known on the Demiurg. Everything you write there is...written where?

I would say that due their 'shy' nature they would not resort to other xenos but do all themselves.




[/quote]

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Demiurg Bastion class commerce vessel
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 06:16:50 PM »
The only real reason to give them a Demiurg escort is to flesh them out some more. They have 2 ships, with a third one possible but which really requires some sort of conversion work (to distinguish the Bastion and Citadel). Since most people probably won't do that, unless given an easy guide with a fairly cool result, then groups will still only have 2 different Demiurg ships. In fact the addition of the Citadel might simply serve to dilute the uniformity of what people consider Demiurg, as some groups will no doubt run their stock Bastion models as Citadels instead, and effectively remove the Bastion from their repertoire. Meaning some groups will have a Stronghold and Bastion, a few have Stronghold and Citadel instead and some will have all three. Adding an escort would help bring some unity at least. With three models, one of each class, they'd feel more like a fleet rather than some also-rans. Which would then serve to make the "Bastion + Citadel" scenario more likely.

Besides, I like the idea of some almost completely automated escorts with smaller mining drills (cutting beams) which can be used to go into places that the larger ships can't. I could imagine a few of these helping out their parent ships in their harvesting operations, either through actual mining, harvesting, hauling or to set up a defensive perimeter when conducting operations in unsafe territories. And, as noted, the models suit too.

Also, as Horizon points out, since the designers aren't here to babysit the game and also haven't told us why Demiurg can't have escorts I say fucm. I've not read any fluff saying they can't have them.   ???

Well anyway, they're the reasons why I think it'd be cool for the Demiurg to get an official escort class ship.  :-\