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Author Topic: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development  (Read 177587 times)

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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2010, 11:05:10 PM »
Wasn't me then. I never knew the background of the Astral Knights. But it would be true that if they don't exist anymore, kinda pointless to make their rules unless it's for one off games to recreate the killing of the destruction of the World Ender. Unless the rules are made for SM with similar doctrines as the Astral Knights. That would work. Much like UM and other SM are represented by the Dominion fleet or BT and other similar crusading SM represented by the BT fleet.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2010, 11:55:45 PM »
It was mostly shot down on the basis of "does not exist anymore".

At the time i supported chapter specific battle barges, but that also was shot down.

Doctrines are simply a "no" in my book, they have amazing LD as it is, they don't need help in that department.

I will repeat my point: add the blackship to the list as 0-1.  It gives them a little more punch, staying power, and access to a battle cruiser.

I have tried to post a pic of my barge, but evidently the upload folder is full...

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2010, 12:36:09 AM »
I wouldn't mind Chapter specific barges. I did that with my SW fleet. Most likely thought there wouldn't be that many variants for current day BB. The VBBs would be the way to go for Chapter specific BBs out of the current SM design.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 12:38:18 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2010, 01:18:53 AM »
Yeah, i never, ever, EVER will support that idea.  I like how in the current Space marine book how they show two of the Ultramarines barges, they look unique, and are very impressive, but still BARGES!

The idea was drown out behind people who demanded chapter specific fleets.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2010, 02:37:33 AM »
You won't support what idea? Using VBBs as Chapter specific BBs? I don't mind but I also forgot to include that only the First and Second Founding Chapters should be able to use those VBBs. The later Chapters should be using the vanilla BB design and variants.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2010, 03:02:28 AM »
the whole venerable battle barge idea. Put simply, all warships after the horus heresy, venerable or not, were removed from the hands of the space marines. The whole "find or capture" idea doesn't pan out, because the Navy would claim it and take it. While the Marines can argue with the Imperial Guard, the imperial navy has final say on any recovered ship, and are probably willing to maintain the check and balance on the marines with lethal intent.


I can see a vanilla barge customized and kitted out post aquisition, hence the chapter specific barges.  Venerable barges selected from the other battleships? Hell freakin' no.  Giving space marines access to lances, nova cannons, and huge launch capacity is just taking it a step too far for the rules, and for the fluff.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2010, 04:12:27 AM »
Hmm thats a point.  What if there were rules to replace lances with bombard cannons?

While not retaining the same military weapons layout, I can see them using the hulls of old ships while in a pinch.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 07:17:01 AM by lastspartacus »

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2010, 07:19:11 AM »
 I've been thinking about the idea of SC variants.  I think dropping a TH for a shield would make the SC feel just like a SC should be.
I don't know about costing that, but if anything, I would drop them 5 points or so.

So, that is the standard SC, keep the variable prows offered, variety is good.

Two variant SC layouts.  Cost can be debated.

Assault Strike Cruiser:  replace port/starboard weapons batteries for a thunderhawk bay each.

Linebreaker Strike Cruiser: replace prow TH bay with str3 bombardment cannon

Any thoughts on an extra shield and turret on the Battlebarge?  I don't have a problem with the marines keeping themselves just as well protected as normal navy ships.

Also.  Make the Terminator's exactly like the chaos version.  I think the Honor Guard option isn't quite right, but more on that later.

Offline Caine-HoA

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2010, 09:21:22 AM »
@Zelnik
You wont ever get more than one VBB so where is the problem? Its not that much compared the the overall fleet composition if one ship has lances. One Novacannon is almost useless if not supported by other long range weapons or luck, so i dont see a problem there as well.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2010, 09:54:36 AM »
the whole venerable battle barge idea. Put simply, all warships after the horus heresy, venerable or not, were removed from the hands of the space marines. The whole "find or capture" idea doesn't pan out, because the Navy would claim it and take it. While the Marines can argue with the Imperial Guard, the imperial navy has final say on any recovered ship, and are probably willing to maintain the check and balance on the marines with lethal intent.

No, not true. Not all the existing battleships at the time of the Horus Heresy were removed. Especially those which the Emperor gave to favored Primarchs. Capturing is not out of the question as well. If you are referring to the Space Wolves list I made, it is also noted in their fluff, not just those of the Black Library, that they do capture ships from time to time. The IN can try to take it by force but then again the Logan would just tell them try to do so. But even he would most likely just give captured ships back to the IN if they ask nicely. No one would want to piss him off esp oin these times when they need every loyal SM they can get.

I can see a vanilla barge customized and kitted out post aquisition, hence the chapter specific barges.  Venerable barges selected from the other battleships? Hell freakin' no.  Giving space marines access to lances, nova cannons, and huge launch capacity is just taking it a step too far for the rules, and for the fluff.

Maybe that's the way to go. Limit the access to lance heavy battleships. The Despoiler and Desolator shouldn't be taken because there is a flaw in the design. The Apoc is out as well. The Emperor, Retribution and Oberon should be allowed if only because they are one off ships which should only be allowed in the First and Second Founding Chapters.

For the Grand Cruisers, limit it to the Vengeance, Exorcist, Retaliator and Avenger.

For the Battlecruisers, limit it to the Overlord (and maybe a torp version of the Mars).

For the Heavy Cruisers, Hades and Styx should be viable. The last 3 categories should again be limited only to the First and Second Founding Chapters.

Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2010, 10:12:59 AM »
ok with me.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2010, 05:13:58 PM »
in regards to the gifts given by the emprah, the chapters in question probably would never bring them into battle for fear of losing them.  (I personally think it's the result of extremely poor writing)

Also, they are extremely RARE. So rare that the odds of them appearing in a battle are SMALL.

I like the idea of chapter specific battle barges, kitted out slightly different from each other (for example, the Dark Angels barge had a st 9 torpedo and st 2 t-hawks to represent their love of hunters and torpedo combat) to show different tastes in space combat.


Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2010, 06:23:17 PM »
Variable BB's would be good as well, as long as they were costed appropriately.  Hell, Seditio would be ok if he cost more than he currently does.
If in a faction, you gain something that is normally not there, you pay premium for it.  Thats how you balance.

Also, thoughts on variable SC's?

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2010, 06:58:32 PM »
SedO. No, not now, not ever, for any point value. It is totally contrary to the design philosophy and purpose of the Marine fleet and as such should never exist with the current load out.
-Vaaish

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2010, 07:08:27 PM »
Well I at least understood the fluff of it and would be happy with it for 30+ points or so.  But if not, I don't care.  I don't plan on using it anyway.

I really hope the strike cruiser variants are liked.  I think it will go a long way in adding some variety to the SM's.

Maybe +15/20 points for the assault variant, +10 for the linebreaker?


Thoughts on standard terminator boarding parties?

It hasn't been brought up in a bit, but I do believe a teleport attack should be allowed standard by marines while on SO.

Its true you cant differentiate as much in space with marines, but there is I think some potential to be had.
Would it be fun if you had the option of purchasing Uncommon Doctrines for your fleet?  Double boarding value to represent chapters like the blood angels and space wolves, just like khornate chaos marines.  Allowing ships more teleport attacks to represent chapters like the imperial fists or rapid strike chapters like the raven guard.

Battlebarge alterations will go a long way in giving chapter definition as well, without the trouble of having multiple chapter fleet lists.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 07:14:59 PM by lastspartacus »