July 18, 2019, 10:46:41 AM

Author Topic: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?  (Read 8494 times)

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Offline FreeHansje

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 08:04:00 AM »
Martini,
I am a bit at a loss after your last remark. I believe I have pointed out that the movingphase would not just loose a variable, but also gain a variable. I also believe I have pointed out that Team dynamics is not dependant on this shoot-at-nearest rule. The dynamics you describe are perfectly valid and similar good tactics without this rule. If you feel the shootingphase is not ment to be a thinkingphase, I dunno what to say to that other then: I like a game to challence me, and having to think through your options in the shootingphase poses an extra challence, while at the same time this does not lower the challence in the movingphase.
I have presented several reasons to drop this rule. I have presented alternatives for at least partly incorporate such rule consistent with other game mechanics. I believe I have countered arguments, that this rule would be neccessary, or that leaving out this rule would degrade the game. If you say you see NO valid reason I assume that you don't WANT to change this rule, nomatter what reasons are presented. And that's ok, we both live in a free country(I hope). But say so, admit that you like the game as it is and that you see no need for you to change it in this aspect.

Offline The Arbitrator General

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 07:37:53 PM »
Skimming through this thread it appears that:

#1. You want to consider removing the closest target rule.

and

#2. Some errata has broken overwatch

As for #1 the closest target rule will not be removed.  It is a core element of Necromunda.  If it is removed then a lot of elements of the game will need to be changed and modified.  As an example, there are cover modifiers to look at, gear to look at, and skills to look at.  So, I am sorry to report that closest target will be staying in the rules.  My experience with Mordheim tells me that we do not want Mordheim-O-Munda.  Sorry, this is a Necro game mechanic that will not be removed.

As for #2 please bring up the errata/Q&A item and will explain or re-evaluate it for you.
I AM THE LAW ON NECROMUNDA!!!

Offline Martini Henrie

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 11:24:55 PM »
Ok, the rule works perfectly well as it is.  It's been my position from the start, and I see no reason for it to be changed.  Thank you for a good debate though.  Changing the rule as you want has more negatives than any positive you have brought up.

Have fun!
Innocence proves Nothing

Offline FreeHansje

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 07:55:35 AM »
ABG,
Your conclusion is not quite right, but never mind that. I figured it will be a long shot to raise support to change this rule from the start. My aim in this threat was to provide reasons to do so and refute reasons NOT to do so. Sofar I have not read any reason against dropping this rule, and I like to think I negated every reason NOT to remove this rule. And no, there is no need to change anything you mentioned, except for 1 thing: the marksman skill only gives extended range. I have never used this rule, I think I can make an experienced statement here.
As for Overwatch: I merely used that rule to prove rules do change over time and that an Errata defenitely can change a rule completely; there is no question on that rule on my side.

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Changing the rule as you want has more negatives than any positive you have brought up.

Martini, no, alas, no rational reason has been given to make this statement true. Every 'reason' given to keep the rule sofar is based on emotion. That's cool, noprob, I can live with that; for me ratio is generally speaking a firmer basis to make decisions.

Nice debate though, indeed. Until some other thread.

Offline Ravendas

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 12:30:57 PM »
Yet another thread where Freehansje declares himself the 'winner' despite every other person in the thread disagreeing with all of his points.

Congratulations.

Oh, besides marksman, there is the part where you have to change "The Entire Game" due to it all being balanced around the rule of shooting at the closest model. But we will just ignore that for your sake. You won.

Btw, what about this overwatch nonsense? You say you used 'that rule' to 'prove' that rules change over time. What rule? How did it change? You declared you did it without doing it, leaving me a bit confused. Give us a link to the other thread you mention. Is that the 5 or 7 page one from Eastern Fringe from a month or so back?

Offline FreeHansje

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 02:34:59 PM »
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Yet another thread where Freehansje declares himself the 'winner' despite every other person in the thread disagreeing with all of his points.

You judge me completely wrong, Ravenous, but never mind, it has nothing to do with this discussion.
On this Overwatch rule: yes, I referred to a discussion on EF where I participated in. But you don't have to read that thread, just read the OW rule in the original rulebook(or ORB) and then read what is proclaimed in Errata. It boils down to this: the original OW rule says you can shoot at any target, the Errata 'clarification' says you have to shoot at nearest target. A big change, agreed? There are more examples of such rule changes.

Offline Martini Henrie

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2009, 07:44:00 PM »
Jeez man, get off the boat.  Popping at us will garner you no more acknowledgement than banging on the same line as you have been.  The result here is exactly the same as on the other forum, you can now just wonder off in a cool cloud of bewilderness...

The rule as it is is core to the game.  There is no emotion in this statment.  It is fact, and frankly I'm getting bored of poking holes in your theory.  The rule is in place to make the player think about the postioning of the gang, and the support provided between its members.  Allowing free shooting removes too much of the tactical game play, you need to be forced to work at getting shots at heavies or the gang leader.

That's the position, and that's the way my position will stay.  I feel saddened because you have cheapened a good debate by getting personal.
Innocence proves Nothing

Offline FreeHansje

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2009, 07:55:08 PM »
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There is no emotion in this statment.

Not so. Read your last posting again.

Also, I don't think I am getting personal... Shall we try and end this politely and respectfully? I hope I show with this (last) post that I can.

Offline The Shield

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 12:10:17 AM »
Basically the nearest target allowes you to play counter to what your opponent wants, it allows you to tactically control them, which really is the point. With decent placement I can control your shots, I can make my opponent do what I want them to. This then gives them the tactical decision of how to position their models to either aquire the line of fire they need or to scupper my plans. It's not that different from saying whys the break test 2inches? I mean if you see someone blow up you've seen them blow up, but it encourages cleaver positioning of you gang.

Certain gangs rely more on such things; why word anyone shoot near a wyrds force field given the choice and things such as plague zombies become largely redunent, they are there to take bullets. There's loads more tactical options when you have more control over what your opponent can do because you both have input to that outcome. Marksmen are great assets both for the range and ability to pick targets they add another tactical level to the game.

People can not realistically stick armies of juves as cannon fodder; you'll just get yourself bottled that why.

The shooting phase should be the culmination of stratagies laid.

Do you allow people to charge/run by the nearest target also?


Offline The Arbitrator General

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2009, 12:48:32 AM »
Ok, stopping the thread now with this comment....

The FAQ does not change Overwatch.  The ORB says that overwatch follows all the rules of shooting and that you can fire at a moving target during overwatch as it moves.  I will look into the FAQ and correct it if need be.

Please do not personally attack people or declare yourself the winner of an arguement that you bring no facts to.
I AM THE LAW ON NECROMUNDA!!!

Offline Andy Hoare

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Re: Why 'shoot-at-the-closest/easiest-target'?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 12:53:52 PM »
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..and takes too much of the challenge away.

I have asked before: what challence? In the shootingphase you hardly have to think, you just HAVE to shoot at the closest/easiest target. Again, what is the challence here?
In the movementphase, sure, you have to see to it that your valuable characters are behind  a less valuable character; that may require some thought. Is this challence?

Yes, I believe so - the tactical advance to close quarters battle is (for me), where the game is won or lost. Clever manoeuvres and deliberate setting up of fire arcs in that stage of the game can set you up for the important bit (the bit where the lead starts flying!)

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...