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Offline flybywire-E2C

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Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« on: August 22, 2010, 03:14:17 AM »
We have prepared draft rules for the Rogue Traders and Pirates Fleet Lists, but the upload folder is full. If you wish, the file can be seen here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/bfg-list/files/-%202010%20FAQ%2C%20Errata%20%26%20Additions/

We would like to hear any thoughts about these before we try to get them cleaned up and pushed past GW. Any thoughts, comments, complaints, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

-   Nate
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 03:44:20 AM by flybywire-E2C »
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 08:32:37 AM »
Ah, these rules I already by mistake. I mean, GW removed the old ones from their site, I mailed Ray if he had them and instead sent me these ones. As asked I was silent about it. ;)

List had cool story...

I will see if I can find my mailings on it. I remember the list not being strong.

List changed though I see now. (xenotech not for free and now it is d6 or pay more to select)..

Xenos vessels ok, give 'em an extra turret (xenotech) always I say. Best choice! Rest does not matter to them I guess.

Light Cruiser: still suffers from the Voss Light Cruiser syndrom: weak choice. Should have 6+ prow at no cost. All of them.

Cruiser: Why not based on Lunar? Lunar is more common then Tyrant on which it is based.


Fleet list: I still do not agree with the set-up. Adding them to other fleets.

Check out Warp Rift issue 17:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/bfgmag/index.html

That is how Rogue Traders should be. It was made before the Rogue Trader RPG book, and even after that cool Rogue Trader RPG book by FFG the list from WR17 still stands.

So much more custom (can be cut down somewhat I guess). More choices on ships to take. Three different fleet lists! As background dictates the Rogue Trader only fleet, suited for smaller games (as BFG really should !), the list in which an Imperial Commander dictates a Rogue Trader to fight alongside him and the list which resembles the Great Expedtions which Rogue Traders undertake.

I mean, all that info was also in this pdf and the older pdf and yet you didn't do a thing with it when bringing Rogue Traders into BFG. Pity.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 03:03:03 AM »
Ah, these rules I already by mistake. I mean, GW removed the old ones from their site, I mailed Ray if he had them and instead sent me these ones. As asked I was silent about it. ;)

List had cool story...

I will see if I can find my mailings on it. I remember the list not being strong.

List changed though I see now. (xenotech not for free and now it is d6 or pay more to select)..

Xenos vessels ok, give 'em an extra turret (xenotech) always I say. Best choice! Rest does not matter to them I guess.

Light Cruiser: still suffers from the Voss Light Cruiser syndrom: weak choice. Should have 6+ prow at no cost. All of them.

Cruiser: Why not based on Lunar? Lunar is more common then Tyrant on which it is based.


Fleet list: I still do not agree with the set-up. Adding them to other fleets.

Check out Warp Rift issue 17:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/bfgmag/index.html

That is how Rogue Traders should be. It was made before the Rogue Trader RPG book, and even after that cool Rogue Trader RPG book by FFG the list from WR17 still stands.

So much more custom (can be cut down somewhat I guess). More choices on ships to take. Three different fleet lists! As background dictates the Rogue Trader only fleet, suited for smaller games (as BFG really should !), the list in which an Imperial Commander dictates a Rogue Trader to fight alongside him and the list which resembles the Great Expedtions which Rogue Traders undertake.

I mean, all that info was also in this pdf and the older pdf and yet you didn't do a thing with it when bringing Rogue Traders into BFG. Pity.


You make several good points here. We tried to put as much variety and possibilities as possible while keeping it simple. Keeping it simple is always the key- there’s lots of temptation to hang all kinds of bells and whistles on a fleet list or rule set, but doing so creates a bunch of “except when” clauses to the rules, which BFG already suffers too much from.

As for the Endurance CL’s, I wanted a way to sneak more of them into the game, and as they are supposed to be much older than Dauntless, I figured letting Rogue Traders use them would be perfect. Also, the Xenos Escort special rules let them pick a refit as part of their point cost, and they already come with two turrets. If they came with three and could pick a fourth, they would be absolutely ridiculous!

One brilliant point you brought up was “Why not Lunars?” Lunars were derived from Tyrants and are more common: true. According to fluff, lances are more complex and maintenance-intensive than weapon batteries, which is something Rogue Traders would be trying to avoid or at least contract out (hence xenos ships). Lunars are the closest example to the Imperium’s “latest thing,” which explains why there aren’t so many Tyrants around. This ALSO explains why it would be easier for a Rogue Trader to get his hands on a Tyrant than a Lunar, which would more likely be a newer hull that the Imperial Navy would be considerably less inclined to part with.

As for all the missing stuff, the Draft rules are missing all the fluff and graphics that will be in the final product. For the draft, we wanted to focus on just the rule-sets so we wouldn’t have to deal with esoteric debates about how fluff-true the fluff is, etc. Trust me, the final product is going to be quite shiny!

Smile, game on and enjoy!

-   Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 04:01:13 AM »
Heya,


Okay point about Batteries vs lances. I can see that. Same that ordnance might be running low.
But also keep in mind that there are also moments that an Imperial Lord who gives someone the Rogue Trader authority also give them ships and fleet.
So I would love some variety here.

The light cruiser, yes, more of them cool, as it stands the voss light cruisers are just bad choices in any fleet except an upgraded Endeavour in the Adeptus Mechanicus fleet.

You didn't comment on the fleet list? What is there for people who want a dedicated Rogue Trader list?

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 04:20:25 AM »
Heya,


Okay point about Batteries vs lances. I can see that. Same that ordnance might be running low.
But also keep in mind that there are also moments that an Imperial Lord who gives someone the Rogue Trader authority also give them ships and fleet.
So I would love some variety here.

The light cruiser, yes, more of them cool, as it stands the voss light cruisers are just bad choices in any fleet except an upgraded Endeavour in the Adeptus Mechanicus fleet.

You didn't comment on the fleet list? What is there for people who want a dedicated Rogue Trader list?

Somehow a dedicated RT fleet list fell off the radar. I have one in the original draft copy and will make sure the final has it included, which looks a lot like the "Rogue Traders in Battlefleet Gothic" page but in reverse. Basically it's escort and transport heavy, at least six escorts for every cruiser, one allied cruiser for every three RT cruisers, some other details I'm leaving out, etc. As soon as the upload queue unclogs itself I will upload a copy of the RT rules that includes the missing page.

- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 04:42:16 AM »
I could upload it in this thread if you keep on having problems to do so. Or perhaps you can send Cybershadow or Mod-Lex a pm and ask your upload storage to be increased. I mean, you're a HA member. ;)

Offline CyberShadow

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 11:34:35 AM »

How big is the file? You could sign up here and host it:

http://www.players.tacticalwargames.net/tiki-list_file_gallery.php
My blog: http://www.cybershadow.ninja
The Tactical Wargames Network: www.tacticalwargames.net

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 11:29:45 AM »
Hi all! Mod-Lex has made arrangements for me to post drafts of everything we're working on in a public place that will be accessible to all the various different BFG fan lists out there. This also makes it easy for me to pull it down from that one place should GW finally get this stuff put up on the GW Specialist BFG Resources site.

In the meantime, here's a revised DRAFT VERSION of the Rogue Trader fleet list:

FLEET COMMANDER
Veteran Rogue Traders
A Veteran Rogue Trader may be present for every two Rogue Trader cruisers in a fleet. At least one Veteran Rogue Trader must be assigned to a Rogue Trader cruiser in the fleet.
Veteran Rogue Trader (Ld9) . . . . . . . . . . . 50 points
A Veteran Rogue Trader gets one re-roll, which may be used for his vessel or an accompanying Rogue Trader escort squadron.

CAPITAL SHIPS
Your fleet may include no more than twelve cruisers. Heavy transports may also be taken but not in squadrons with other transport types. Heavy transports do not count against the total number of cruisers allowed in the fleet.
Rogue Trader Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 185 points
Rogue Trader Light Cruiser . . . . . . . . . . . 120 points
Heavy Transport . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 points

ESCORTS
A single squadron of 2-6 Rogue Trader escorts, Rogue Trader cargo ships and auxiliary vessels may accompany each Rogue Trader cruiser in a fleet, in any mix desired. Besides Xenos vessels, auxiliary vessels from only one race can be taken in a fleet.Any race can be used to provide auxiliary vessels except Orks, Necrons and Tyranids. Xenos vessels cannot be employed if Space Marine escorts are used as auxiliary vessels.
Xenos Vessel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 points
Recommissioned Escort. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 points
Iconoclast Destroyer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30 points
Rogue Trader Cargo Vessel . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 points
Auxiliary vessels . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Varies

TRANSPORTS
The fleet must include at least one squadron of escort-sized cargo ships of any type (whether or not the scenario requires transports), organized in a squadron of 2-6 ships. Any number of cargo ships beyond this number may be taken, but they must be organized in squadrons that only contain cargo ships. These always count their full cost against the total points in the fleet, and regular transports are not free.
Escort Carrier . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 points
Q-ship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 points
Rogue Trader Cargo Vessel . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 points
Armed Freighter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 points
Cargo Transport . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 points

RESERVES AND ALLIES
Up to one cruiser from any fleet except Orks, Necrons and Tyranids can be taken for every three Rogue Trader cruisers in the fleet. The capital ships taken can only be from one fleet and cannot be from a fleet list differing from that used to provide escort squadron auxiliary vessels. If the fleet is large enough that three reserve or allied capital ships are taken, a single allied battleship may also accompany the fleet for its regular point cost. Reserves and Allied vessels do not have access to the Veteran Rogue Trader re-rolls, though allied vessels may purchase up to one special character from its own fleet list (if available).

THE DEMIURG
At least one Demiurg vessel of any class may be taken for every three Rogue Trader cruisers in the fleet. This is separate from and in addition to any reserve or allied cruisers taken, but each Demiurg vessel taken still counts against the twelve-cruiser limit, and no more than one Stronghold may be taken. Demiurg vessels may not be employed if Orks or Space Marines are taken as reserves, allies or escort squadron auxiliary vessels.
Stronghold Commerce Vessel . . . . . . . . . 350 points
Bastion Commerce Vessel . . . . . . . . . . . . 255 points
Citadel Commerce Vessel . . . . . . . . . . . . .185 points

THE KROOT
A single Kroot Warsphere may be taken if there are at least three Rogue Trader cruisers in the fleet. This is separate from and in addition to any reserve or allied cruisers taken, and the Kroot Warsphere does not count against the twelve-cruiser limit. A Kroot Warsphere may not be employed if Orks or Space Marines are taken as reserves, allies or escort squadron auxiliary vessels.
Kroot Warsphere . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 145 points

USING A ROGUE TRADER FLEET
Attack Rating
When used with this fleet list, Rogue Traders have an attack (initiative) rating of 3.
Xenos Allies
The rules listed on this fleet list take the place of those listed on p.13 concerning incorporating Kroot or Demiurg vessels into a fleet accompanied by a Rogue Trader cruiser.
Sub-plots
A Rogue Trader fleet more often than not operates in wilderness space far from support or assistance should the need arise. Any game using the Rogue Trader fleet list must include a sub-plot from p.82-84 in the rulebook.
The Best Money Can Buy
The Xenotech Systems refit list can only be used by Rogue Trader cruisers and escorts, not by other reserves or allied vessels in the fleet. Over the course of a campaign, Rogue Trader cruisers cannot earn additional refits from the Xenotech list and must use the refit tables listed on p.156 of the rulebook. Rogue Traders that join the fleet over the course of a campaign may start by taking one refit from the Xenotech list for the appropriate point cost.
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 07:44:08 PM »
That looks good at a glance.

Offline trynerror

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2010, 12:48:19 AM »
Demiurg and Kroot have "... may not be employed if Orks ..." in it, but above it says that Reserves and Auxiliary can not be Orks.

Offline Zhukov

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 06:25:13 PM »

So I am happy we are updating the Rogue Traders. They definately needed one!

As for the ship profiles, I like the Recommissioned Escort that had 2 WB and 35 pts.

Xenos escorts are really really really cool :) The only thing is that GW sells that really crappy pack of escorts meaning it will be impossible to ever get many of them from GW. Personally, I would love battles with a bunch of those guys flying around the table, each with their own xenotech system, it would be awesome! But with the current rules it doesn't look like this will ever happen. Ah but a dream I guess.

I am working with Roy (Horizon) on doing a fan supplement that has 9 small xenos races (one has a BB, one a cruiser, 5 only use escorts) each with their own "special" weaponry (small, unique changes, certainly nothing over the top!). In case your interested, its the Kharechi Expanse here http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=15831&start=0

-Zhukov
I am Zukov's Klaw.

"Oh mah gawd its like a giant veil was just lifted off my face and the beautiful maiden before my eyes just turned into a hideous Ork with a giant, bloody choppa."

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 06:40:27 PM »
Could we get the option to pay extra points to pick the upgrades on Admech too? It would seem they would be more readily able to decide on what to take than a trader would :)
-Vaaish

Offline horizon

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 04:19:35 AM »
Good call, make the AWR upgrade the most expensive one. Because really, that upgrade outshines every other upgrade.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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New DRAFT rules for Space Marines fleets and Rogue Traders
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 03:11:06 AM »
Hi all! The DRAFT rules for Space Marines Dominion and Crusade fleets as well as Rogue Traders & Pirates can be seen here:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&hl=en
To be perfectly clear that these are only drafts, they are stamped as such on every page of the downloadable version of the documents. These remain a work in progress and should in no way be considered a final product until the name has a date stamp and has “DRAFT” pulled out of the name.

As far as the finalized documents go, the Eldar Domains and Refits file has been re-named but is otherwise completely unchanged. I’ve changed the naming convention for the finalized files to show the date in (YYYYMMDD) format. This way if for some reason the finalized rule sets have some unforeseen error or otherwise needs to be repaired, it will be replaced with a new file with an updated date. This way you will know at a glance whether or not you have the most current copy of the rules. Keep in mind that NONE of these are official canon until we finalize all  the projects we are working on and get them turned in to GW. What we will be turning in however is pretty much what you see in the finalized documents, at which time I will be pulling the site down.

Have fun, game on and enjoy!

-   Nate


Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Rogue Traders draft rules for BFG
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 03:53:04 AM »
I do not like or want the marine fleet rules posted in those drafts. You are reversing a core Marine mechanic of limited availability of lances by allowing strike cruisers to take S2 lances in the forward arc for the same cost as a normal Strike Cruiser. Second, you are allowing the Seditio Opprimere which again goes contrary to the core mechanic of marine fleets having limited access to lances.  Third, I see no reason to ever use a list outside of the Dominion list. You loose boarding torpedoes and HR benefits, but you gain resilient bombers, 120 point strike cruisers with 2 lances on the front arc (dauntless speed with 6+ armor, 2 turrets and bombers? yes, please), and cheap battle barges.

This means that the test fleet I've been thinking of using would suddenly have a squadron of 4 strike cruisers carrying 8 lances and, if I wanted, I could swap out the battlebarge for the Seditio Opprimere bumping that up to 12 lances. While marines might need a bit of a boost to be more competitive, this just strikes me as bad in a number of ways. I'm not even sure why this is being made either, are you planning a combined IN fleet PDF with 1:1 battlecruisers to cruisers, non scattering NC, and 45CM WB standard too?
-Vaaish