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Author Topic: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG  (Read 119223 times)

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Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #540 on: December 16, 2010, 05:24:04 PM »
...madness...

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #541 on: December 16, 2010, 07:36:41 PM »
Oh and FYI, Zelnik.  '10 missiles for every imperial torpedo' means that each marker represents 10 smaller missiles, not that they can pack more punch out of their torpedo bays.

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #542 on: December 16, 2010, 08:29:56 PM »
I agree with Zelnik that a variant with 0LB is just weird. 1 Launch bay is good and sufficient.

And yes, LS is right on the missiles.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #543 on: December 17, 2010, 02:47:48 AM »
I don't question that, but since SO MANY are launched, it's not a stretch for assume that it could be a full strength 6.

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #544 on: December 17, 2010, 03:59:35 AM »
But if 5 retains balance better then 6 no harm done. Good.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #545 on: December 19, 2010, 12:05:21 AM »
Its been awhile.

Nate, I challenge you to make a better argument for the Custodian.  I understand the idea behind your fluff reasons completely, but there is zero reason to be so hardline about something so foggy as whether or not the kororvesh could have a manouverable battleship.  It would help the gameplay immensely, so going on gut feeling when there are perfectly good fluff reasons is, I think, the biggest mistake in the entire PDF series.

Also, I have a character Custodian for you.  But I need to know if the Custodian is 'Final' or not, before I submit it.  Deflector fields and the like.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #546 on: December 19, 2010, 02:41:09 AM »
Okay folks, here it is. We have a framework “theme” for how every fleet is supposed to behave, what it’s supposed to be good at, and what it’s supposed to be bad at. Tau’s “theme” is that they suck at building true warships, and their propulsion, energy and shield tech is nowhere NEARLY as good as the Imperium. Take the Explorer for example. It has absolutely monstrous drives, yet it moves only 15cm and can barely juice more than one shield. Even their background fluff illustrates their WB fire is a carefully choreographed ripple-fire of their railguns because they don’t have the power to fire them simultaneously.

Without getting into the mechanics of how or why Forgeworld came about with producing the Kor’or’vesh, they just did. GW’s immediate (and present) policy is that all the models are just “counts as” models using the current GW rules (Custodian=Explorer, Emissary=Merchant, etc.), which is why GW never produced a ruleset for them.

Forgeworld came out with their own rules for them, the first iteration of which were an abomination and duly butchered by the HA’s when we were given a sneak-peek. Forgeworld came out with a second set of profiles they didn’t even show us before putting them in print (Imperial Armor 4). Their Kor’or’vesh rules were put on their online resources site for awhile but it’s been gone for several years now. Unfortunately IA#4 is an expensive book most BFG-only fans will probably never buy because though it has more than a hundred pages of WH40k rules and materials, only 4 pages are dedicated to BFG. This isn’t too much of a tragedy- the new FW profiles are still a bit buggy, though I suppose anyone who wants to use them can as long as their opponent doesn’t mind.

Anyway, regardless of how shiny the new models look, the fleet “theme” hasn’t changed. Tau starship tech (which is so vastly scaled up to anything in WH40k, an analogy would be pointless) was barely better than that of Orks and far behind Imperials before the Damocles Gulf Crusade. By the time of the Taros Campaign (which is an entirely Forgeworld-generated contrivance) several decades later, the Tau fleet is completely different thanks to Forgeworld, but GW’s underlying theme hasn’t changed. Should Tau tech be better than it was several decades earlier? Of course it should- the crucible of war does wonders for advancing technology, especially when you have a three-front war (Imperium, Orks and Tyranids) threatening you with annihilation. However, desperation only gets you so far regardless of the resources at your disposal, and with only several decades between two wars, there is NO WAY the basic theme of the Tau morphed from “barely better than Orks” to “better than the Imperium.”

How do we represent this in rules? Easy: Kor’or’vesh starships are purpose-designed warships built to the Tau’s combat philosophy instead of the re-packaged Air-caste colonization vessels they were using pre-Damocles. Because Tau drives still suck (bigger does NOT mean better), their warships have to be smaller so they can move like warships. They still can’t go fast, but their small size lets them turn better. However, the smaller size benefit only condenses down to a point: their flagship 10HP vessel is still battleship-sized as battleship-mass vessels apply to the Tau, and their drives aren’t advanced enough yet to let the Custodian behave like anything besides a battleship. This means NO Grand Cruiser movement and NO 90 degree turns. This is also why they aren’t getting a 4th shield, though a deflector is still under discussion.

Just because something feels good doesn’t mean it is right for the fleet’s theme. If we keep making new ships and rules to program out the shortcomings of every fleet, we will eventually come full-circle and make all the fleets exactly the same. Then we would have nothing but a game of battleship-chess, and nobody would have to figure out how to fight to a fleet’s strengths and not merely try to fleet up its shortcomings. 

Rubbish.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #547 on: December 19, 2010, 05:28:53 AM »
Well, I think mine was more diplomatic, but yeah, what Sig said.

It already irked me how light handed the HA was being on the other fleets, but THIS is a completely original fleet.  Screw GW's opinion, there is no precedent to have to stick to.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #548 on: December 19, 2010, 06:29:13 PM »
I am not upset about the rules, but the idea that the tau "suck" is just a sign of tau bashing. With all the glitter that all the other fleets are getting this update, I find the hard and heavy handed manner the HA is using to be very suspicious. 

Marines getting new cruisers and a ven barge... three new fleets, four new battleships, a new cruiser and a hulk for chaos... nova cannons being sprinkled throughout the navy and new rules for the light cruisers...

What do tau get? Mostly weaker ships loss of ordnance power for a moderate weapon growth, and a special character.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #549 on: December 19, 2010, 06:51:38 PM »
The CPF is a pretty cool fleet, just needs a little more love, I love what they have done so far. 
But you are right, it does seem heavy handed.  I wonder if it comes from fear of making another Korvattra?

What really needs to happen is for the true primitive fleet, the korvattra, being nerfed slightly.
The kororvesh is new and improved.  I am completely happy with tau not sharing Imperial advances.  No 60cm weapons ever, weaker ships for the points you pay.  But there is no reason for them not to have some cool and balanced racial uniqueness after centuries of honing the fleet to how they want it to operate. 

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #550 on: December 19, 2010, 07:50:16 PM »
So, Zelnik, LS failed, but try to persuade Don Gusto first. He says this new Tau fleet is too strong.

The current is playable to me.

The Custodian is MUCH cooler then the FW variant. It only needs a Grand Cruiser status and a prow deflector.

The Protector has more gunnery then my well tested Project Distant Darkness variants. Balanced.

The Emissary, problem here is the variant issues (not all equal).

Escorts are fine/good.

I am happy to see less ordnance in this fleet.

cheers,

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #551 on: December 19, 2010, 11:26:45 PM »
Don Gusto needs to get over himself then.

How do you justify calling the fleet overpowered?

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #552 on: December 19, 2010, 11:55:16 PM »
Yeah, I was never really trying to convince Don about it, if he thinks its omgwtf then theres not really any debating it, one way or another.

Offline Eldanesh

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #553 on: December 20, 2010, 01:48:30 AM »
Just an idea: allow the Tau capitals to make theirs turn with reduced minimum movement. e.g cruisers after 5cm and BB's after 10cm.

- I haven't tested this in any way, but  I believe it should help tau a lot, due to their front-orient weapons (e.g. protectors can turn 180° on CTNH even if under fire...)
- it's still in line with the "inferior to the Imperium" -philosophy (which I share), as this is more an expression of another philosophy ("make them more agile if we lack the rare power") than one of superior technology
- it's a kind of racial special rule-something that most people seem to like

Offline Asmodai

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #554 on: December 20, 2010, 06:03:05 PM »
Just an idea: allow the Tau capitals to make theirs turn with reduced minimum movement. e.g cruisers after 5cm and BB's after 10cm.

- I haven't tested this in any way, but  I believe it should help tau a lot, due to their front-orient weapons (e.g. protectors can turn 180° on CTNH even if under fire...)
- it's still in line with the "inferior to the Imperium" -philosophy (which I share), as this is more an expression of another philosophy ("make them more agile if we lack the rare power") than one of superior technology
- it's a kind of racial special rule-something that most people seem to like

What if we did a middle-ground solution and gave them a rule that said you can either do a reduced move and a 45* turn, or a regular with a 90*?  

- This sticks with the fluff - As they are lighter, more agile ships, it seems to figure that they can turn a little with less inertia.  This will also help with the forward arc in certain situations.  However, I have not play tested it, I thought it wouldn't hurt to hear the group's view on this.  Maybe we can apply it only to limited ships?  or we make it an upgrade (e.g., lighter bulkheads +10 pts and gives this rule and represents the fact that they are always evolving their tech towards their fighting style, but have not gotten to the point where they include it on all their ships)

Sorry it took a while for me to post, I had to go through this whole forum thread!  I love the work you guys are doing!  Thanks :)

One question I did have is are there any current plans on the emissary variants?  I agree with Horizon....the 1 lb kinda seems out of place, I feel like all of them should have a lb (or none of them...heck maybe make a variant that actually never needs to reload ordinance! That would be a change for Tau).  But thats just my two cents.  I'm trying to find reasons to take emissaries. I REALLY want to for their wardens, but I feel like it may need just a bit more oompf, (speed, or firepower, or something).

EDIT:
Actually, now that I think about it!  Why not do the upgrade or the agility rule for the Emissary?  It makes complete sense.  I understand you don't want to make them faster, but this allows them to have "necessary mix of firepower and maneuverability"  It distinguishes them from the rest of the fleet in that they get that little extra oompf of mobility that may be needed to protect the dignitaries.  So the emissary could maybe lose the launchers all together and get the ability turn 45* at 5, or do their regular 90.  Gameplay-wise, it means you can leverage them as a gunboat thats a little easier to get into position and thus makes them really worth taking.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 08:27:12 PM by Asmodai »