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Author Topic: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG  (Read 123609 times)

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Offline Vaaish

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #450 on: December 04, 2010, 02:20:37 AM »
well, 10cm is too small with the size of the models to make the tracking system much use when measuring from the stem so an increase was a practical need, though 20cm might be a bit large. It mainly just needs to be enlarged enough to counter the effects of a larger model blocking more space so perhaps 15cm.
-Vaaish

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #451 on: December 04, 2010, 07:36:43 AM »
lol @ Don Gusto & Last Spartacus.

Who both fail to see the good balance in different directions.

Very funny.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #452 on: December 04, 2010, 03:50:07 PM »
Oh, I'm correct.  Dunno what hes smoking :)

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #453 on: December 04, 2010, 08:40:55 PM »
Holding my shiny new Custodian in my hand, I can agree on many things.

If that big circular thing is indeed the tracking system, I fully understand it being 20cm range.  
The TS on the Custodian is the size of an entire Messenger!  Add on years of refinement no doubt to the tech, and fluffwise its easily 20cm.

For the protector variants, at least internally they are much more balanced now, so thats good.

Besides the strengths and weaknesses I see in the Protector, I would think that it being the only line cruiser option, at 6 hp, would give it some kind of points break for being a less reliable backbone.

For the Custodian, I'd love to hear at least some design principle from Nate or another HA about the logic behind not giving better manouverability or endurance to the ship.

I'd love to see some kind of character prototype Custodian.  Every fleet needs an expensive centerpiece ;)

Don:  This fleet is no where even approaching the power of the korvattra.

Fluff question:  I'm guessing, but I don't know exactly when Farsight defected.  Would the Enclaves have access to Kororvesh ships?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 08:42:36 PM by lastspartacus »

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #454 on: December 04, 2010, 09:35:03 PM »
Nate posted a while back that the deflector was the only thing keeping the Custodian from 4+ armor because of that gaping hole in the middle.

My current concern about the 20cm range on the tracking system is that it might be a little too large and we haven't accounted for the geniuses who will pop all their models off the stands to fit everything in range of the system. If we drop it back to 15cm this will be somewhat harder to do and make everything there NC/Armageddon Gun/ Torpedo bait which should discourage over clumping.
-Vaaish

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #455 on: December 04, 2010, 09:50:07 PM »
15cm...wouldnt be horribly opposed.  But I am totally against base popping :)

As to the prow deflectors, as its been said before, has nothing to do with frontal armor.  If it has to go to 5+ and 4+ prow with a prow deflector to make it balanced, so be it.  Thatd be kind of interesting actually.

If the Emissary cant get above 1 fighter bay, drop it entirely for another couple batteries or a short ranged lance?

Final thing I noticed when looking at my shiny new Custodian, 'Damn, this thing does NOT look like it would move like a battleship!'
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 09:59:00 PM by lastspartacus »

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #456 on: December 05, 2010, 12:45:11 AM »
Holding my shiny new Custodian in my hand, I can agree on many things.

For the Custodian, I'd love to hear at least some design principle from Nate or another HA about the logic behind not giving better manouverability or endurance to the ship.


Okay folks, here it is. We have a framework “theme” for how every fleet is supposed to behave, what it’s supposed to be good at, and what it’s supposed to be bad at. Tau’s “theme” is that they suck at building true warships, and their propulsion, energy and shield tech is nowhere NEARLY as good as the Imperium. Take the Explorer for example. It has absolutely monstrous drives, yet it moves only 15cm and can barely juice more than one shield. Even their background fluff illustrates their WB fire is a carefully choreographed ripple-fire of their railguns because they don’t have the power to fire them simultaneously.

Without getting into the mechanics of how or why Forgeworld came about with producing the Kor’or’vesh, they just did. GW’s immediate (and present) policy is that all the models are just “counts as” models using the current GW rules (Custodian=Explorer, Emissary=Merchant, etc.), which is why GW never produced a ruleset for them.

Forgeworld came out with their own rules for them, the first iteration of which were an abomination and duly butchered by the HA’s when we were given a sneak-peek. Forgeworld came out with a second set of profiles they didn’t even show us before putting them in print (Imperial Armor 4). Their Kor’or’vesh rules were put on their online resources site for awhile but it’s been gone for several years now. Unfortunately IA#4 is an expensive book most BFG-only fans will probably never buy because though it has more than a hundred pages of WH40k rules and materials, only 4 pages are dedicated to BFG. This isn’t too much of a tragedy- the new FW profiles are still a bit buggy, though I suppose anyone who wants to use them can as long as their opponent doesn’t mind.

Anyway, regardless of how shiny the new models look, the fleet “theme” hasn’t changed. Tau starship tech (which is so vastly scaled up to anything in WH40k, an analogy would be pointless) was barely better than that of Orks and far behind Imperials before the Damocles Gulf Crusade. By the time of the Taros Campaign (which is an entirely Forgeworld-generated contrivance) several decades later, the Tau fleet is completely different thanks to Forgeworld, but GW’s underlying theme hasn’t changed. Should Tau tech be better than it was several decades earlier? Of course it should- the crucible of war does wonders for advancing technology, especially when you have a three-front war (Imperium, Orks and Tyranids) threatening you with annihilation. However, desperation only gets you so far regardless of the resources at your disposal, and with only several decades between two wars, there is NO WAY the basic theme of the Tau morphed from “barely better than Orks” to “better than the Imperium.”

How do we represent this in rules? Easy: Kor’or’vesh starships are purpose-designed warships built to the Tau’s combat philosophy instead of the re-packaged Air-caste colonization vessels they were using pre-Damocles. Because Tau drives still suck (bigger does NOT mean better), their warships have to be smaller so they can move like warships. They still can’t go fast, but their small size lets them turn better. However, the smaller size benefit only condenses down to a point: their flagship 10HP vessel is still battleship-sized as battleship-mass vessels apply to the Tau, and their drives aren’t advanced enough yet to let the Custodian behave like anything besides a battleship. This means NO Grand Cruiser movement and NO 90 degree turns. This is also why they aren’t getting a 4th shield, though a deflector is still under discussion.

Just because something feels good doesn’t mean it is right for the fleet’s theme. If we keep making new ships and rules to program out the shortcomings of every fleet, we will eventually come full-circle and make all the fleets exactly the same. Then we would have nothing but a game of battleship-chess, and nobody would have to figure out how to fight to a fleet’s strengths and not merely try to fleet up its shortcomings. 

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I'd love to see some kind of character prototype Custodian.  Every fleet needs an expensive centerpiece ;)



This sounds like a good idea, say a one-off vessel. Back at you- what should it look like, leaving the above constraints unchanged?

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Don:  This fleet is no where even approaching the power of the korvattra.


It’s easy to say considering Explorers are cheap, no-limit carriers. Like everything else in the game, smart tactics can overcome this. One of our play-test battles was actually a pure Kor’vattra fleet against a pure Kor’or’vesh fleet, just to check for balance. It was exceedingly close.

Quote


Fluff question:  I'm guessing, but I don't know exactly when Farsight defected.  Would the Enclaves have access to Kororvesh ships?


Commander Farsight defected before the Taros Campaign and thus wouldn’t have access to Kor’or’vesh ships. For flavor, imagine him as the Abbadon of the Tau, and you wouldn’t be far off. We have declined to make it official canon that a Farsight fleet can’t have Kor’or’vesh ships because in the greater scheme of things there isn’t enough reason to make the distinction (there can always be defections, of course), but ideally a fluff-true Farsight fleet wouldn’t have any Kor’or’vesh ships at all.

-   Nate

   
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #457 on: December 05, 2010, 02:12:22 AM »
Thanks for the response, Nate.

It's pretty clear you and the HA are not Tau fans, and if GW gave you that opinion.. they are Tau haters :P

One of the defining features of the Tau was always their rapid technological development, and their ability to adapt to new threats. Ironically, they also had several MacGuffins roll in and save their small empire from complete obliteration (the Demiurg deletion of a waagh, the warp storm that allowed them to even survive, Shadowsun's 'flawless victory' against a splinter fleet)

I hate to say this, but you are making them out to be not worth playing. in that post, you said "Ignore the shiny exterior, they are the technological equivalent of a bottle rocket with a pea-shooter"

So i have to ask, do you have a conflict of interest in making these rules? There are a LOT of rabid tau haters, who would do anything to hamstring them as hard and violently as they could, even if it was in a dying medium.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #458 on: December 05, 2010, 02:16:46 AM »
Thanks for the response, Nate.

It's pretty clear you and the HA are not Tau fans, and if GW gave you that opinion.. they are Tau haters :P

One of the defining features of the Tau was always their rapid technological development, and their ability to adapt to new threats. Ironically, they also had several MacGuffins roll in and save their small empire from complete obliteration (the Demiurg deletion of a waagh, the warp storm that allowed them to even survive, Shadowsun's 'flawless victory' against a splinter fleet)

I hate to say this, but you are making them out to be not worth playing. in that post, you said "Ignore the shiny exterior, they are the technological equivalent of a bottle rocket with a pea-shooter"

So i have to ask, do you have a conflict of interest in making these rules? There are a LOT of rabid tau haters, who would do anything to hamstring them as hard and violently as they could, even if it was in a dying medium.

It has to do with the rules the HA is working under that GW saddled them with.  One of  them is that 'Nothing may be more advanced then the Imperium' and the other one that I think is absurd is that 'any new ship must be based on an existing ship'.  You can see how this conflicts with a lot of fluff AND common sense.
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #459 on: December 05, 2010, 02:51:13 AM »
Not that I'm a tau hater, but seriously, aesthetics are not equal to technological advancement. Just because a race whose known for fluid aesthetics makes a ship that looks fluid doesn't mean that it's super advanced under the hood. It just means that they made it fit within their own aesthetic framework.

If Tau drive technology and weapons tech are below the imperium in space according to the fluff, it doesn't freaking matter what they are capable of on the surface. There is a huge separation between having railguns and making the large enough and effective enough at the ranges in space against targets that are far more powerful and armored than Titans. Tau doesn't translate into magic technology wild card. There just isn't enough time for them to advance farther than they have.

That being the case, I'll accept that the Tau are calling the custodian a battleship and that it has the mass of a battleship grade ship but inferior materials and technology degrading it to CG status. I guess that makes it a big ship and the pride of the Tau navy, but in the galactic scope, not much better than a grand cruiser.
-Vaaish

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #460 on: December 05, 2010, 03:59:03 AM »
Hold on just a second, lets not forget that the fluff has a huge bias. Since most fluff is told from the imperial perspective, EVERYTHING is inferior technology compared to them.   

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #461 on: December 05, 2010, 04:35:43 AM »
to the front line troops perhaps, but I highly doubt the Imperium would survive long if those in charge didn't have more factual intel. In this case, I'd be inclined to believe that the imperium is more advanced given the weight of evidence in Imperial cruisers capabilities vs the tau of any flavor. Things such as higher hits with the same speed tell me that Imperial drives are capable of propelling higher mass with equal capabilities as lighter tau vessels. Lack of 60cm weapons tell me that Tau haven't been able to match Imperial weapons technology in space either.
-Vaaish

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #462 on: December 05, 2010, 04:39:45 AM »
Trust me I understand that. I just never viewed it as "They are cavemen attacking spetznaz"


Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #463 on: December 05, 2010, 05:57:14 AM »
Trust me I understand that. I just never viewed it as "They are cavemen attacking spetznaz"



This comment suggests the Tau have a tattered, worthless fleet. Protectors are extremely hard-hitting for the point cost, their ordnance is great, and many of the fixes people wanted for the Custodian happened. The Tau are NOT a magic fleet. Not having an Eldar battleship (which is what a lot of people here seem to want) is NOT the same thing as "Tau suck- thanks Nate!"

I happen to love the Tau and have a huge fleet of them, nearly 6,000 points between GW models, FW models and Demiurg/Kroot. This fleet is well-balanced against every fleet it was play-tested against, which is why making this document "final" is taking so long. A LOT of tweaks have happened along the way. Play with the thing, maybe even two, and you will find this ship is actually really good for the point cost.

The deflector is still under discussion, but making this thing a grand cruiser is dead. That being said, house rules are a beautiful thing. If this rule set still sucks in your opinion, PLEASE feel free to tailor it any way you want. Considering the current official rules have Custodians count as Explorers, what we have here is a definite improvement.

Thread ends

- Nate

Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #464 on: December 05, 2010, 07:17:35 AM »
Thanks Nate, as an HA your knowledge of TAU fluff is good. 200 years after 'better than orks' doesn't mean better than imperial.

Sure Tau have only been spacefaring for 1000 years so far, it took them 700 years to go from just the explorer to their first true warship (Hero class)

And yes the Tau have a lot of issues holding them back from competing with imperial tech in a lot of ways. Namely warp drives (I love the fluff about the tau reverse engineering an ork ships drives, its amusing and true to how life would go. Reminds me of a tv show where a person who time travels leaves behind his camera sparking a tech revolution). As well as the power issues, through the entirety of 40k fluff maintaining engines and shields are extremely power-costly endeavors. As well tau ships were forced to be of larger size than the imperial equivalents due to their poorly designed warp drives.

Tau are only supposed to invent tech about 2-3x as fast as humanity, I remember the fluff on how they went from a feral, tribal race to spacefaring in 5000? years. About twice as fast as humanity. Probably within the next 250-500 years they will surpass impie tech, if they don't die before then, those tyranids are problematic.