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Author Topic: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG  (Read 123346 times)

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Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2010, 06:46:39 PM »
Vaaish plays Imperial Navy mostly.

Caine, which fleets have longer range?
Chaos = longest ranges allround.
The Marines are equal only on their barge. (Marines will suffer badly vs this Tau fleet).
Imperial Navy = some ranged weapons on their battlecruisers. More on the battleships. Tau missiles & ordnance outshine Imperial Navy ordnance.
Eldar short ranged
Necrons short ranged
Nids some range on Hiveships.

I can keep my enemy pretty long in the front arc, especially if they stay abeam.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2010, 07:01:51 PM »
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Making the tracking systems different advantages only active when having special orders would be even more special rules.

why so? it's still a single special rule with two parts both of which are easily explained and simple to understand(LO=no shift over 30cm, BFI=reroll turrets). In any event, I don't think there is anything fluff wise to justify it as a fleet wide passive bonus in the Tau naval forces. I'd be fine with the tracking rule as it is now IF it was granted by the messenger alone as it is in the Armada list.

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I cant remember what ur favorite fleet was at the moment but i guess it has some advatages of its own who arent only ative at special orders.
It's called the Imperial Navy... we don't get special rules to give us advantages.

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How often in a fleet engagement can you shoot exactly at the range of 30-45cm? Of corse tracking systems are usefull but other fleets have even longer ranges or other boni.
Depends on several factors, but it's not uncommon. If we are talking about other fleets having longer range or shooting bonuses as justification, I'd like to see a fleet wide increase on the IN shooting capabilities as this is now acceptable reasoning for Tau to receive it when such changes aren't needed for their fleet to be balanced.

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Your last point with the agility has its disadvanteges as well. Yes you can try to position your battleship to only move slowly and keep closing in but first of all that keeps your toughest ship out of the battle and second this taktic is far easier to use with a ship that has a strong braodside (as u simply move sidewards instead of closing at least 7,5-10cm each round). With "only" 45 cm range how often can u move slowly towards the enemy until you come into their range? (maybe two or maximum 3 turns, so how could you keep them in your front arc for a long time?)

I never said anything about the movement speed, although, with the launch bay capabilities and gravetic launchers of the Custodian, there isn't much reason to move fast to close. Let your ordnance do the heavy hitting while the fleet creeps forward and then use your boosted shooting to lock on and decimate the wounded fleet. My point was that the custodian is a grand cruiser whose only disadvantage is the no CTNH order which rarely comes into play because smart positioning at the onset of the battle will give you the flexibility to keep enemy vessels in the forward arc without resorting to special orders to bring weapons on target.
-Vaaish

Offline Caine-HoA

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2010, 07:22:57 PM »
"why so? it's still a single special rule with two parts both of which are easily explained and simple to understand(LO=no shift over 30cm, BFI=reroll turrets). In any event, I don't think there is anything fluff wise to justify it as a fleet wide passive bonus in the Tau naval forces. I'd be fine with the tracking rule as it is now IF it was granted by the messenger alone as it is in the Armada list."

On their own all rules are easy to explain.


"It's called the Imperial Navy... we don't get special rules to give us advantages."

So nova cannons are no special equipment/rules? Btw. i think except in large engagements imperial ships are on the weaker side, so dont get me wrong and of course some fleets are rather standard, imps is one of them.
Btw. i only wanted to say that tau have disadvantages an advantages not only advantages.

@ranges

Ok it might be that i had chaos ranges in mind, at least for cruisers. On battleships 45cm is standard or several ships even have 60cm.



Offline Vaaish

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2010, 07:37:11 PM »
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So nova cannons are no special equipment/rules?

Special weapons and special rules are two separate beasts. We are discussing fleet wide special rules, which the IN has none. The NC is limited in availability and capability; furthermore it is expensive to add outside of the Dominator. [The NC] falls into a realm completely outside of the scope of the current discussion, [the tracking system doesn't] because it affects the performance of the entire fleet with little, if anything, sacrificed.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 08:07:52 PM by Vaaish »
-Vaaish

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2010, 08:03:09 PM »
Caine,
yes Tau have advantages & disadvantages.

My biggest gripe with this fleet is that the advantages are kept, a disadvantage is gone ((boarding) plus all turrets means it is a no-go to board them..)), a reasonable aspect of them is increased a lot (more range on Custodian, Protector variants to synery gunnery maxing, plus tracking systems).

It is only + + +, no - - -

If the FW fleet was weak then okay, but the fleet is as everyone supports: balanced.
To add to the confusion it was Nate who stated that the FW fleet was overpowered!
So, I am flabbergasted to be honest.

And I hate fleet list fixes regarding balance.

/edit
I am not opposed to tracking systems on the Tau but this should incorporate:
No Ion Cannon @ 45cm
Railguns only front arc (45cm allowed)
Boarding weakness kept
Fewer ordnance (less bays on Custodian & Protector).

See, that's adding tracking systems and keeping balance. :)

Offline Shinnentai

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2010, 09:52:24 PM »
Ooh, didn't realise that SG forums had found a new home - and the Tau rules wrestled away from those well meaning dullards at Forgeworld! Hurrah! Also good to see some things never change even after 4 years - Blackhorizon still pushing the whole 'sleek models = fast and maneuverable' line ;D

Lessee - comments on the proposed list. You'll forgive me if I use a lot of comparison to the list I helped make (henceforth referred to as the 2006 list), but while it was very much design by committee (and so a bit of a hodgepodge of compromises) I think it did manage to get some interesting concepts in.

Custodian - One of the concepts I really liked in the 2006 list was the command and control element of this ship in the form of it's umbrella of tracking systems - I think it really fit with the model (that big disc-like section just screams fleet-coordination to me), was a very Tau-like concept and elevated the Custodian from being just a big carrier (boring!).

Warden - Ah my favourite little ship! Well needless to say I'm sticking to my guns and going with the 2006 list's ubercool twin ion-cannon on fixed mounts. I would however, include a special rule stating that the Ion cannon require a successful reload ordnance to fire again (ignoring doubles), the intention being that such small craft simply don't have the power to charge the Ion Cannons as swiftly as larger vessels. I think this really fits in well with the Tau military thinking too, with players encouraged to consider where that first powerful full strength ion cannon volley from their Warden sqns will have the most impact, knowing that any follow-up strike next turn will have to do without lock-on at best (not to mention the inevitable casualties!).

Emissary - Great to see the grav-hook option! Limiting Wardens to Custodians in all-FW fleets would be pretty foolish. Definitely a tough ship to get right this one though, when you try to pack in the Tau's typically diverse weapons systems into such a small ship they end up looking individually weak for their points. That plus light cruisers are always tough to justify compared to regular cruisers which are obviously should be better suited to the battle-lines. I think the 2006 list's Emissary was overpowered for its points and a little too tough with the 2nd shield.

The proposed Emissary is getting there although I'd still drop a launch bay to keep points down - vital given its fragility (yeah there's two on the model but they're pretty small!!!). I still say yes to 45 turns - Tau have their multiple fire-arcs so making it too easy to turn takes away some of the challenge in playing Tau. (lols you know there's been too much BFG forum discussion when you still remember the alt-numpad shortcut for the degrees sign 4 years later). Keeping the points down is another reason I think the Custodian Tracking Systems of the 2006 list work so well : it allows you to keep the points in the big Custodians while stripping as much as possible so the fragile Emissaries are better balanced. Plus the Emissaries sticking close to the Custodians while Protectors are assigned a prowling hunter-killer role is a fairly cool image.

Orbital City - Cmon give it grav-hooks! Wardens and Orcas make great little planetary defense ships.

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2010, 04:04:25 AM »
Oh noes! Shinnentai!

LET THE ... discussion arise. ;)

Yes, I am still pushing the manoeuvrable fleet and seen this thread some people (more then expected) agree with me.

Have you read Project Distant Darkness (not the fanatic online article but the full fleet list)?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/rules/gothic/ddarkness.html

Why did you leave out the Protector?

Also, I think it was in one of the latest Xisor threads at the former SG site that you two started to change some things to 'your' cpf list?
iirc, increasing Custodian point values (oh yeah, in comparision to this new draft Tau your Custodian was cooler with its 6 launch bays).
Protector changing from Ion Cannon boat to Railgun vessel.

On the Emissary? wait... you need to download the new draft Tau list the HA made, here:
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=1730.0
an update to the list mentioned in this thread. With 2 Protector variants, 3 Emissary variants....

Also 45* with swinging arcs (your Emissary comment) yeah but since the Railgun mounts are fixed forward on all vessels they should be Front only and thus warranting a 90* turn. I still deny Emissaries with 45*. ;)

Welcome back!

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2010, 05:02:31 PM »
Okay, I am clarifying this now.  Is this proposed rules to officially replace the forgeworld BFG rules?

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2010, 07:34:07 PM »
lol, yes.

Less we pray GW just forgets about BFG... oh wait.. foot shot.

No really, if these Tau rules become official.... I fear the most for the upcoming Craftworld Eldar update.


Problem is that the Forgeworld rules are not downloadable at the Forgeworld site, but they are here:

http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/
issue 75

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2010, 04:04:16 AM »


Orbital City - Cmon give it grav-hooks! Wardens and Orcas make great little planetary defense ships.

Ray and I both wanted the Orbital City to be the Tau's version of the Space Station on p.145 of the rulebook. Even +2HP, tracking systems and an extra shield didn't seem to make up for what we took away compared to the Imp station for the same cost. Grav hooks are cheap- a lot of the of the cost is in the extra models that are paid for separately. Two hooks for no price change seems quite doable.

- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2010, 07:15:52 AM »
Space Stations are rather poor anyway. I would start from scratch with all of them.

Offline Caine-HoA

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2010, 10:14:36 PM »
Space stations in general should have higher weapon ranges than ships. They are easy to evade (except in a invasion). I wonder who would buil such space stations as they are weaker than having mobile ships in almost any cases.

An exception to this is the GW-Tau-Modules as you can give them a lot of shields and turrets saving them from attacks that dont focus on them. (Still having low range and simply can be avoided)

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2010, 03:17:04 AM »
lol, yes.

Less we pray GW just forgets about BFG... oh wait.. foot shot.

No really, if these Tau rules become official.... I fear the most for the upcoming Craftworld Eldar update.


Problem is that the Forgeworld rules are not downloadable at the Forgeworld site, but they are here:

http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/
issue 75

Right now there is no plan to update the Craftworld Eldar. We are concentrating our efforts on what GW didn't codify before handing the game off to the HA's. This way everyone will have reasonably balanced rules for every model that's out there. We were looking to codify some of the Bakka models and other ships that made it in the BFG magazine while we were at it, if the opportunity or interest presents itself.

- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2010, 04:16:00 AM »
All right... I think I know what you are doing.  But every model out there? I do not think I am such a fan of making every model ever appeared in a magazine official. Bakka wasn't made official back in the days for a reason.

Can you give examples on which models your aiming at?

So far we have different ideas about balance though. ;)

And since the Forgeworld Tau do have balanced rules there will be no need to update them. Right? ;)
And as far as I know there is only a couple (I encountered two, one being in the original article, around the global forums) of Seditio Op... out there. Does it really need official rules?

With all the FAQ2010 changes to the CWE I think a pdf update would be easy though.

But then.... what is this....?
I'd rather update the CWE pdf's ;)

We're working on that as well. If you happen to have a self-printed copy of the BFG living rulebook, you will be happy to know the final copy of the FAQ will be in landscape format with lots of BFG-themed graphics and backgrounds (GW artwork, not fan-made).

Good times!

- Nate
:)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 04:21:52 AM by horizon »

Offline KivArn

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Re: Tau Kor'or'vesh Commerce Protection Fleet draft rules for BFG
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2010, 10:24:29 AM »
Is the " Final " draft of the tau rules actually the Final version? as the discussion of this fleet seems to have stalled somewhat...

There were a few issues that hadn't been settled, one being the slightly obscure necessity for the Aun on the Custodian, (though i can kinda see this from a background POV)

Another being the 2/500points limitation for protectors, this seems to be an unnecessary and cumbersome rule. As it only truely affects a 1000 point fleet (as you'll almost certainly be taking a custodian or more above that) (i made a full choice comparison of this in a different thread...)

The wording of the limitations of the custodian is also somewhat confusing as the rule and the example seem to imply slightly different things.
Similarly as Horizon pointed out it is still very easy to get 2 custodians in a 1500 point fleet which is something Nate disliked about the forgeworld rules.
Would a 1 per 1500 points or part there of rule not suit the custodians better?