December 16, 2018, 05:48:35 PM

Author Topic: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me  (Read 28485 times)

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Offline Valhallan

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #120 on: November 15, 2010, 01:24:00 AM »
then how about 1:1 for each *type* of cruiser...
ie 1 dragon for 1 shadow/eclipse; 1 wraith for 1 aurora/solaris


Offline maaksel

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2010, 03:54:32 AM »
Long time BFG player, very excited about several of the new changes.

Overall I find the shadow hunter to be 'meh' with it's current rendition in the 2010 FAQ.  They are shadow 'hunters' not shadow 'defenders', which makes me believe they go out looking for the attack craft to shoot them down, not 'defend' better against them.

Also, with the drop of the Prince to 100, means that corsair elder can be used correct?  Why would I take a shadow hunter over a hemlock? Especially with the amount of attack craft (and it's resilience) that this craftworld can produce.

Best case would be a Hemlock paired with a Shadow Hunter 3WB.  On brace you lose a grand total of 1 WB.

As for 3 pulsars vs 14 WB's.  3 pulsars AVERAGE 1.5 + .75 + .375 hits, a grand total of 2.63 hits (against any armor).

14 WB's, you'll average between 10 and 7 dice, so we'll say 8.5 for fun.  AV4 ~4.25 hits, AV5~2.42 hits, AV6 1.4.  The lance is superior vs both AV5 and AV6 (assuming no holofields).  Locked on (really? eldar locked on?)  The lance will get even better.

I read through the new warp rift and I really liked the new battleship for them - seems like fun, will have to play test it.

I look forward to being a new active member in the community.

Offline horizon

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2010, 05:16:49 AM »
Hi Maaksel,

1 Eldar Pulsar equals 4 Eldar Weapon Batteries. Therefor the options on the Wraithship are good and in equal strength.

16wb vs 3 Pulsar is 1:5, which is in heavy favour of the batteries. Within MMS the strenghts are 12wb & 3pl which still plays out balanced.

So 14wb vs 3 PL is a good choice.  
Creating 4 PL / 16WB is just off limits.

You compare the possible average damage output by the Pulsar. But the hit potential is somewhat lower.

Also Eldar WB are always closing:
That means 10 dice between 15-30cm
If  a blastmarker is present 7 (but then I'd pick another target).
Under 15cm the dice are 13 (left shift).
And they don't go over 30cm.

So we are looking at an average of 10 dice all the time. Since
i) my Eldar won't be daft to go under 15cm (but if I do I get 13 dice which might a final kill option).
ii) I will look for other targets if blastmarkers are intervening.


Also, your 8,5 dice vs 5+ armour is wrong: should be 2,81


7 dice (15-30cm behind blastmarker)
4+ = 3,50
5+ = 2,31
6+ = 1,12

10 dice (15-30cm or under 15 behind blastmarker)
4+ = 5,00
5+ = 3,30
6+ = 1,60

13 dice (under 15cm)
4+ = 6,50
5+ = 4,29
6+ = 2,08

From this we see that vs 5+ armour the 14 weapon batteries are better then the 3 pulsar unless there is an intervening blastmarker. Versus 4+ armour the weapon batteries are plain better.
Only vs 6+ armour the Pulsar is better on all levels.

So that leads to this: a mixture of both weapons is adviced in the fleet. Both are needed.
:)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:40:43 AM by horizon »

Offline maaksel

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2010, 09:08:25 PM »
Following link has the break down of 1-20 batteries vs lances at the 1=4WB Mark.

I agree with you that against capital ships, they are pretty similar so long as AV5. AV6, lances are quite superior, and AV4 (which, IMO there is not TOO much of, but it is out there), WB's are much better.



I'll post more on the community when I get home, I really wish I had access from work (I should be able to fix it tomorrow).

The only problem with saying "I'll just pick another target" is a) you have to pass your LD test (which, although is easier to do with eldar, is not always certain), and b) there sometimes is not another target present to shoot at. If you were to assume blast markers were in base contact 1/3 of the time, and calculate in the average eldar LD is 8.5 (no princes) - We'll take the average of 8 (72.22%) and 9(83.33%) is 77.78%

So, unfortunately we have to assume some blast markers which I gave 33%, plus the 22.2% chance to fail shooting another target... odds are you will shoot through blast markers (although it IS close).

All of that, assuming you're shooting at capital ships only.

I highly agree, I want people to choose their fleets based upon what they like and feel is needed, not one that is highly superior to the other.

Question, if 1 pulsar lance is = 4 eldar WB, why is the shadow hunter 3 WB to 1 'regular' lance? For the same point cost someone can take a hemlock (with the prince being brought down to 100 points).

The problem with all the math above is that it is not taking into account any escorts.  Now that escorts can get a 4+ to be hit vs AB, as well as a brace - I think we'll be seeing more of them.

Offline horizon

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2010, 09:59:03 PM »
Hi,
the Shadowhunter is skewed in that regard since it should have the DE variant or similar and not a regular lance. Since 1 lance is 3 normal batteries, thus the battery shadowhunter is always adviced.
The Wraithship is a perfect example of a good option choices.

With picking other targets: yeah Ld test necessary, but as said lesser of a problem for Eldar.

More escorts in the game is better, I like escors, underrated by many.
But Eldar can deal with that through other means.

But with the Elwb above Pulsar in those (cool!) graphics the fact pulsar edge out vs escorts it makes the mix better & better.
Especially since all 6+ armour fleets are quite rare.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #125 on: December 18, 2010, 09:45:19 AM »
Just a quick note, it is highly unlikely that Eldar will be in base contact with Blast Markers when they have to take a target priority test. Who would move into contact with one just before they shoot? Typically Eldar try to avoid them due to the damage they could take. Not that it matters anyway, there is no leadership penalty from BMs for target priority tests.

Also note, it is very easy for MMS Eldar to outflank their opponents to get side or rear armour. Also, it is fairly easy for them to get close range. The vast majority of the time they'll be shooting at a closing cap ship with 5+ armour and a close range shift. [Horizon, I can't get the link to work, you've made the EWB auto-closing right instead of left shift yeah? I can't remember if you did. Because a left shift just equated to more firepower?]

Anyway, apart from all that, 1 pulsar is worth slightly more than 4 EWB, it's just an easy break point for comparison, but the pulsars superiority becomes obvious the larger the numbers.

Offline horizon

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #126 on: December 18, 2010, 10:56:56 AM »
Hi Sig,
this thread is official CWE... So no MMS here.

The LD test was to test if you could fire at targets further away then the closests (with bm).

Under MMS we had since 1.5 a left shift for gunnery, which in essence is the same as more firepower (apart of a few circumstances). Yes. Dunno, Closing is so farting strong.


Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #127 on: December 18, 2010, 11:16:42 AM »
Hi Sig,
this thread is official CWE... So no MMS here.

The LD test was to test if you could fire at targets further away then the closests (with bm).

Under MMS we had since 1.5 a left shift for gunnery, which in essence is the same as more firepower (apart of a few circumstances). Yes. Dunno, Closing is so farting strong.

Heh, farting strong. Anywho, in MMS they will far more often than not get the closing cap ship column, moving away at worst, at 5+ armour. In MSM they'll likely be firing at prow armour or, with a little luck, shooting at side armour, closing cap ship column. Makes Eldar WBs good against Chaos, less so against IN, etc.

As for the Ld tests, I know it was a target priority test, that's what I was talking about. To be in base contact with a BM when having to take a target priority test an Eldar player would have to end their movement on a BM, which they wouldn't do. Even if they did there wouldn't be a leadership penalty, because that only applies to command checks.