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Author Topic: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me  (Read 31701 times)

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Offline RayB HA

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Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« on: April 14, 2010, 11:01:09 PM »
Hi Guys,

As the FAQ thread was getting heavy on CWE I'm starting this new topic.

FAQ proposed changes to CWE:

Flame of Asuryan:
Pulsars are now keel.
Launch bays have Vampires.

Eldar Hero:
Drop from 150pts to 100pts.

Dragonships:
EWB's decreasing to 12 or 14.
Torps increased to 8 from 6.

Shadow Hunter:
All weapons are plain vanilla.
Gains 3 turrets.

Cheers,

RayB  HA
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 11:04:41 PM »
Hi Guys,

As the FAQ thread was getting heavy on CWE I'm starting this new topic.

FAQ proposed changes to CWE:

Flame of Asuryan:
Pulsars are now keel.
Launch bays have Vampires.

Eldar Hero:
Drop from 150pts to 100pts.

Dragonships:
EWB's decreasing to 12 or 14.
Torps increased to 8 from 6.

Shadow Hunter:
All weapons are plain vanilla.
Gains 3 turrets.

Cheers,

RayB  HA


FoE:
No real beef here. I like the vampire idea

Eldar Hero:
I have to agree, LD10 is nice, but there is about 50 wasted points for something that really is not utilized

Dragonship:
Hell no. the reduction of batteries and increase of torps solves NOTHING.  St 6 torps are plenty powerful enough, and this is not a fancy shadow cruiser.

Shadow Hunter:
Don't touch it. The rules are just fine.


Offline RayB HA

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 11:15:06 PM »
Zelnik,

As the Dragonship has multiple options at the same price they have to be of roughly equal value.

1Pulsar = 4EWB's and 1Eldar Launch bay = 2 Eldar Torps. So that's where the weapons strengths come from. Now it could be argued that 1 Pulsar is worth a little bit more than 4EWB's hence the possibility of Str14 EWB's.

In your opinion are 3 Pulsars worth 16EWB's? or 4 ELB's worth 6 Devil Torps?


You think the Shadow Hunter is fine as is. Okay, why do you hate the turret idea so much?

Cheers,

RayB   
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 11:25:09 PM »
1. The Dragon ship is designed to be the flagship of the fleet if the FoE is not taken, Wraithships are little more then light cruisers.
Unlike pulsars and torpedo's. the WB still suffer from gunnery modifiers and rarely ever fire at maximum effectiveness add on top of that the requirement to defeat armor, the conversion between pulsar lances and batteries is not perfect. 

Here is some useless mathhammer.

A maximum number of pulsar hits from 3 is 9 hits. 
The most dice you can ever get from the batteries is 14. Defeating armor 5 or 6 armor reduces the number of chances to do damage considerably. you will be lucky to hit 5 times, maybe 7 if your locked on.

Why am i against turrets? THEY ARE ELDAR.  They don't use them.  Holofields give them a better save anyway.  Don't try and give a fleet more protection when it doesn't need them. 


Offline BlueDagger

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 11:35:49 PM »
Hi Guys,

As the FAQ thread was getting heavy on CWE I'm starting this new topic.

FAQ proposed changes to CWE:

Flame of Asuryan:
Pulsars are now keel.
Launch bays have Vampires.

Eldar Hero:
Drop from 150pts to 100pts.

Dragonships:
EWB's decreasing to 12 or 14.
Torps increased to 8 from 6.

Shadow Hunter:
All weapons are plain vanilla.
Gains 3 turrets.

Cheers,

RayB  HA

FoA: Would prefer pulsars were a combined Prow weapon. It's more like they were designed and they can be damaged that way. Keel gunnery for Eldar is rather awkward with their movement.

Eldar hero: Keep the cost at 150. Require the FoA to have a Pirate Prince or a Supreme Admiral to take. Keeps things simple while benefiting CWE stick with their fleet list.

Dragonship: Still not a fan of the edits on this one. You should rather be making the other options more attractive then nerfing down the current choices. Not sure though why this ship is being edited, not seeing a mass outpour over OMG Dragonships are OP.

Shadowhunter: Not a fan of the turrets either, they just aren't eldar. Boosting the anti-ordinance of the escort won't make it taken more often as that is what it currently is only good for.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2010, 12:38:01 AM »
FoA's Pulsars: The reasons for the Keel allocation are because there are no port or starboard criticals for eldar hence why no other eldar ships have port or starboard weapons, also the fact that the pulsar strength is unaffected by circumstances that would halve thier firepower. Note: There's no change to thier arc, they still shoot forward.

Eldar Hero: The reason for the drop in price is quite simple, he's comparitavely too expensive. The Pirate Prince costs 100pts and is Ld10 unless a 1 is rolled, the Supreme Admiral costs 100pts and is Ld 10. The Hero has more expensive re-rolls than the other 2 unless he buys all 3. The ability to have reserves is rather limited as you will need to buy an extensive amount of the weaker parts of your primary fleet to field the best parts of the other.

Shadow Hunter: If they are going to have a bonus ordnance killing rule it should be close range as they don't have special weapons, they have special movement. Shooting AC even 1cm (1000km) away can't demnonstrate hightened manuverability! Giving them 3 turrets is simple, useful, true to background and isn't even a special rule.

Cheers,

RayB     
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline BlueDagger

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 12:53:38 AM »
FoA Pulars: Ok I fail on this one lol. Was thinking keel was rear, so perfectly fine with this change then.

Eldar Hero: Green light on this one. You won me over, though it kinda makes Supreme Admiral a rather pointless choice. If the HA doesn't approve of this change please fall back on the pirate prince/Supreme Admiral for FoA.

Shadow Hunter: I'm feeling a tad more comfortable about this one, though I don't think the change will make people more inclined to taking them. I wouldn't use the term turrets for the ability, need something more in the sense of maneuvering and fighting at close range which happens to count as turrets.

To clarify does this mean you could move into an ordinance to use turrets on it, fire at another ordinance, then in your ordinance phase move into another to turret again?

Dragonships: Still not seeing the benefit:

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 03:18:10 AM »
Eldar=Turrets no.

The shadowhunter is just fine where it is...

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2010, 07:46:29 AM »
Okay.. Allow me to summarize the issues.


FoA: The changes you are proposing are reasonable. The Vampire hunter addition is a good balance for making the pulsar lances keel weapons.

The Eldar Hero point reduction is a good idea as well, bringing it in line with the Supreme commander.

Dragon Ship: Drop it. Shifting weapon strengths is just pointless in the end, and doesn't solve anything. 

Shadow Hunter:Don't even try.  Adding turrets to make it function better against escorts has no basis, the creators of the fleet gave them a great attack against ordnance, that's more then enough.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2010, 11:52:06 AM »
BlueDagger,

Shadow hunters could attack with thier turrets as many ordy markers as they come into contact with, potetially all enemy ordy! They could also shoot at ordy with thier weapons if they wished.

Dragonship's benefit is having competetive weapon options.


Zelnik,

The intention of CWE design is to have a viable Eldar capital ship fleet. The intention of the Shadow hunter, beyond the nod to space fleet, is to be barely offensive but capable of killing ordy. In thier back ground the ordy killing ability is due to thier manuverability hence 'contact' ability rather than ranged. 

Cheers,

RayB HA
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline horizon

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2010, 01:11:25 PM »
Okay then,
Flame settled. (keel pulsar, free vampires)
Hero settled. (100pts)

On the Supreme Admiral issue: has a cheaper re-roll (25pts).

Dragonship:
Hey, as a compromise 14 would work but still be better then 3 Pulsars in most cases.

Shadowhunter:
Also a no on the turret variant.

I'd advocate the current version (hit ordnance on a 4+) but with a better lance and maybe an added battery.


Offline BlueDagger

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2010, 01:20:06 PM »
Yeah, the more I think about it the less I like the Escort changes. As is they are a barely viable option, except for filling points, and with the battery and rules change they will be taken even less. Going to have to go with Horizon's views on the Shadowhunters as it would make them a viable option to include in the fleet and more options is never a bad thing.

Btw thnx for you patience Ray and hashing things out with our feedback.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 02:11:10 PM »
Roy,

Please tell me why you dislike the turrets idea for the Shadow Hunters?

Would people be amenable to the idea of more firepower at 15cm range (1 pulsar or 4EWB's), but +5cm speed?

Cheers,

RayB
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline BlueDagger

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 02:16:08 PM »
A step in the right direction, but 15cm is ridiculously short ranged, so not sure if +5cm makes up for that.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Craftworld Eldar and why you hate me
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 05:57:43 PM »
'ey.. these are eldar, not Orks ya git!

Horizon, I don't even know why your trying for a compromise.  Your asking for something that has no logical reasoning behind it. taking weapon strength away and putting it somewhere else doesn't solve anything as far as i can tell.   Also, this idea is LESS then popular as far as i can see.


When it comes to the shadow hunters, i am hesitant to agree on a weapon strength increase due to their description and size. These escorts are TINY, and were not meant to attack larger craft unless in large swarms. I don't get your "not viable" argument, since i have used them many times to superb effect.  I strongly suggest you stop comparing them to their corsair cousins.  The two fleets work VERY differently.