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Author Topic: [AL] Grail Reliquae  (Read 2168 times)

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Offline Aldhick

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[AL] Grail Reliquae
« on: December 16, 2016, 01:26:39 PM »
Grail reliquae
  issue: unprecedently cheap item to boost mostly 4 units at time so much. For 30 points you can effectivly
             boost 4 units by +1A, +1Cmd, immune to terror, immune to drive back. Only draw back is the units must
             charge on initiative. In WMR combat system, where supporting units can charge on initiative itís even
             stronger.
  solution: make the min/max Elite (can be used only on 2000+ pts) and possibly retain the -1Cmd.
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Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 03:48:19 PM »
No one with the experience playing with or against Grail pilgrims? On lower point battles especially?

Are paesants viable option to field or are they usable only with the reliquae?
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Offline Jurisch

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2017, 07:03:04 PM »
Hi,

i am using the peasants only with the grail. Othereise they are not really helpful. 30p are cheap - 40p would be more fair.

Regards,
Jurisch
Armies ready for battle - Empire, Chaos, Dwarves, Skaven, Bretonia, Araby, Witch Hunters
Armies in recruitment - Orcs & Goblins, High Elves, Dogs of war

Offline Grimnir

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2017, 09:29:39 AM »
My general view is that the Grail Reliquae is strong and cheap.
Is it too strong? I don't think so.
Is it to cheap? It well might be.

It makes use of otherwise nearly useless peasants (The only use I can think of in WMR is as a support for bowmen, which do not fit in any of my tactics well,) by making a highly usable brigade of them.

Is it wrong? I don't think so.
Without the reliquae, the only infantry option would be men-at-arms. And as the relative strength of cavalry (knights) to infantry shifted in favor of the infantry, I see it good that Bretonnians have a highly usable infantry unit in their arsenal.

Back to "is it too strong?"
It is not an immortal unit. They do not have any armour save and die rather quickly. (It is important to note that if you protect the reliquae unit itself, you can bring fresh peasant units from the reserves to step up for the wounded/killed ones.)
They have another weakness which can be exploited - they have to charge on initiative. Which has also been altered by WMR rules (as the reliquae unit can do the supporting charge). By cleverly placing units in 20cm range from the pilgrims, the whole brigade can be easily divided into two parts (with only 1 unit of 3 remaining in touch with the reliquae unit).

Back to "is it too cheap?"
Especially in smaller games such as 1000 points, its strengths stand out even more if they're used properly. And as a meat shield against shooting - if played correctly, it's simply too many of them to get rid of them effectively before the other bretonnians get at you. But Skaven have a meat shield too (on the other hand, they are much harder to handle if you want them to move fast forward.)

Increasing their cost to somewhere between 40 and 60 would, in my opinion, balance it rather properly.


Another option which I'd raise is to change their "immune to terror"rule to be an activated ability instead of being a persistent one. However, as Aldhick pointed out in one of our discussions, it does only affect the balance against some specific units and armies.

[WM] Bretonnian Earl

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 02:05:44 PM »
I have big problem with the Relics' rules as they are now especially in WMR and I definitely think it is wrong.

The problem is too complex to be simply solved by increasing the price of the relic by 10-30 points.
The problems are cumulated
    - the upgrade is too cheap for what it does - it would be adeqate for one unit boost, but it can effectively boost whole brigade. In WMR combat and support system, coherent infantry brigade is strong tactical force no matter how much it sucks stat-wise. And the pilgrims don't suck at all apart from having no save. This "new" boost cannot be overooked.
    - the boost is too strong and unprecedental compared to any other standard WM armies. I understand, that the motivation was to make useless paesants usable at least in some way, but I find this concept utterly wrong. All units should have their roles no matter the upgrades, otherwise there's something wrong with the list.
    - the pilgrim brigade offers an opportunity to field very strong infantry brigade (immune to terror, immune to drive backs, having 4A in all circumstances) with almost no risk - the player doesn't risk neither break point nor adequate point cost.
   - all mentioned problems are much more visible in games under 2000pts.

  In my eyes the concept is too non-systematic and complex, so some minor point cost adjutements doesn't solve much... well maybe only when it would be slightly ovepriced, which is general concept for "special" units in core WM armies, so they don't become "must take" option (so completely oposite the concept of the Reliquae).
 IMO the problem could be solved only by slightly overpice it or leave the price it has and stripping it of one of the boost abilites.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 02:11:38 PM by Aldhick »
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Offline Grimnir

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 07:59:29 PM »
As a note fore everyone, Aldhick and I already had this discussion. And the sole thing which I think we agreed on is that we do not agree.
One point that I would like to pinpoint is that a couple of Bretonnian players do not field them. So it is clearly not a must-have for everyone. (To be honest, I consider them a must-have for the tactics I use.)

To sum up: I do not agree.
And I think the pint cost increase would balance them well (or changing the immune-to-terror ability to be an activated one as well). Especially on the low-point games, where the abilities of the reliauae stand out the most.

But that said (And I believe we both stated our opinion clearly), what we are looking for here is the opinion of other people who have experience playing the reliquae or against it.
Does anyone got any?
[WM] Bretonnian Earl

Offline Grimnir

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2017, 08:59:57 PM »
One of the suggestions which Aldhick had during our discussions was the following:
One of the peasants penalties is that they have -1 modifier to command rolls, which is cancelled by a non-peasant unit being in a brigade.
One of the reliquae's bonuses is to cancel this -1 command modifier.

Aldhick's suggestion was to cancel this ability making them less maneuverable (which would be partially balanced by the half-pace movement on a first command failed.)

I do not like this idea as I think the reliquae unit should be considered a non-peasant unit (they are pilgrims,) so the penalty should not be applied.


Another of the Aldhick's suggestions, which I like is to slightly modify another of the peasants penalties - Their inability to charge on initiative. Instead, they would be allowed to do a supporting charge on initiative while still being unable to charge on initiative by themselves. Which could give them a bit of usefulness as a cheap unit even without the reliquae.

I'd like to hear any thoughts on these. Thanks.
[WM] Bretonnian Earl

Offline Ole

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 09:22:58 PM »
Why not say that a unit that likes the bonus has to touch the stand not the unit with the relict. That Way it can't be more than 3 effected units.

Ole

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Offline Grimnir

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 09:55:45 PM »
Why not say that a unit that likes the bonus has to touch the stand not the unit with the relict. That Way it can't be more than 3 effected units.

That could be a way to make it more difficult to maneuver with after the first round of combat, and also make the pure meat-shield formation against cannons a bit more complicated. So it might be a way.

But still, I do not think i ever got into a situation where I would be able to effectively get more than 3 other units affected. The brigade size pretty much limits that.
[WM] Bretonnian Earl

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 10:06:45 PM »
Why not say that a unit that likes the bonus has to touch the stand not the unit with the relict. That Way it can't be more than 3 effected units.

Ole

not a bad idea.

In fact the most powerful of the boost is the extra attack. Another nerf option might be to swap it for charge bonus (which pesants don't have) which would be much more in the line with the price.
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Offline Grimnir

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Re: [AL] Grail Reliquae
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2017, 10:19:08 PM »
In fact the most powerful of the boost is the extra attack. Another nerf option might be to swap it for charge bonus (which pesants don't have) which would be much more in the line with the price.
This is a reasonable thought as well. However, I'd prefer the point cost increase over this one.

I'm gathering "intel" on how they perform by the WMR. So far, I have played 2 games with the reliquae by the WMR. Once, the skaven player disassembled them and basiccaly eliminated the brigade with a charge of 2 units of Clan Rats (losing one of them an a stand or two fro the other one) and they never got to combat (nor suffered from massive shooting) in the other game.
However, I think I did not get to use properly at their full strength in any of those two games (they did not get where I asked them to.)
Let us see how they're gonna perform next.
[WM] Bretonnian Earl