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Author Topic: Modeling Question  (Read 7392 times)

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Offline RCgothic

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Re: Modeling Question
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 08:24:02 PM »
You'd have thought the HA's should have kept track of that sort of thing when designing new ships!

Is there a physical difference between the standard murder and the carnage? (prow lances vs prow wbs) I'm having a mental blank. If there is, one could use that to tell the difference between a variant murder and a cerberus/slaughter.

The Slaughter/Cerberus could be told apart by one having (WB - L) and one having (L-WB).

If it's not possible, then oh well. We're most likely going to have the same problem with the Torp Dominator/Tyrant, Dominator/NC Tyrant and Mercury/Overlord.

Offline Zhukov

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Re: Modeling Question
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2011, 03:11:08 AM »
Is there a physical difference between the standard murder and the carnage?

Yes, but it is not in the prow (though I would bet someone has done their own alterations). The real difference in the models is cutting the extensions (some would say antennae) of the WB bit away.

Why do you think the combideck was 'invented'?  Didnt it come with the kits?

Yes it does comes with the Chaos cruiser package. The OBVIOUS answer as to why they designed it is that it gives extra combinations for ships. And, in my opinion, it looks cool ;)

The Scion of Prospero. It has 1 launch bay each side which produces 3 AC. Add onto that the fact that it has 4 dorsal lances. This is more than any other BB and roughly 3 times as powerful as the Apocalypse's dorsal armament. Then, to make matters worse, it has 9WB broadside using a WB hardpoint and a lance hardpoint! Even if you subscribe to the combi-deck theory it should still have some sort of lance armament in the broadside to match the picture!

I completely agree that one Launch Bay bit should not equal 3 points of Launch Bays. That's truly silly and especially so when talking about the Despoiler model and how it has the gaping maw to throw Launch Bay points into. The 4 Dorsal lances is odd to say the least. However, you CAN make the argument that it's a "unique ship" that doesn't have Prow weapons that take from a power source (since torps would obviously use less power than lances). But it's NOT four times more powerful than an Apoc's Dorsal. Apoc has 3 lances at 60cm and the SoP has 4 at 45cm. BUT IT MOST CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE A LANCE WITH THAT COMBO-DECK!!!!!! HOW STUPID CAN THEY BE TO SCREW THAT UP?!?!?!?!

The Wage of Sin very nearly provides some redemption for the document, probably by virtue of the fact it's based off a Desolator rather than a Despoiler. But no, they even managed to screw that by giving it 3AC from one launch bay. If they wanted to make it more powerful they could've increased the dorsal weaponry to 9.

I agree, it should only be 2 Launch Bay's per side with 9 WB's on the Dorsal since they reduced the range of the broadside lances.

The Terminus Est has been around for a long time and it is probably from this ship that they got the 3AC per launch bay idea from in the first place. Well this ship was always a bad fix to the Despoiler, giving 3/3/3 when it should have been 2/2/4. However, it used to be palatable because of its weak broadside WBs. One could merely assume the picture was wrong and model it with 2 launch bays per side and 1 WB piece per side, giving it Styx broadsides in AC. Having 6WB@30cm from 1 WB hardpoint is not at all unreasonable. This inefficient broadside arrangement isn't so bad given the amount of weaponry in the prow, so from an overall balance point of view it wasn't too bad. However, as it sets bad precedents (3AC from 1 hardpoint, 3AC prows + secondary weaponry) and even when "fixed" to 2 launch bays + 1 WB piece per side it is still objectionable (a battleship only getting 6 AC out of 2 hardpoints per side, short ranged WBs, overloaded prow) then yet again it's a bad design.

No arguments from me on this one.

The Vengeful Spirit is pretty much like the TE, only a little worse. The model has that gaping maw of a launch bay but this one has been nerfed down to strength 2, rather than upped to strength 4. It is still using 1 launch bay per side to represent 3 AC and 2 WBs per side to represent firepower 6 (the same fix for TE would work here, with the same problems). Yet again it keeps the prow lances, just like the Despoiler, even though there's no justification for it on the model. It suffers pretty much all the flaws of the Despoiler even with a piss weak attempt at a fix.

I agree with most of what you say. Though did you notice the weapon options a player can choose? It doesn't help a whole lot, but it's a start. Also, have you seen the model done of a Despoiler shooting a beam of green light through the wing of a Tau Custodian? It is an amazing work done by someone. I'll dig it up for ya.

The Conqueror. Uses combi-decks. Nuff said. But I"ll say more anyway. It also has firepower 8 45cm range dorsal WBs. Firepower 9 at 60cm is not overpowered. In fact it's still weak compared to the standard alternative (3L@60cm). So why 8@45? Anyway, why use guns for a Khornate ship? It should have been based on a Despoiler hull and been given all launch bays, so it had 6/6/4 launch capability (16 AC in total). Then just restrict it to a-boats only. No bombers, no fighters. Dorsal weapon batteries and 25cm speed. There's your Chariot of Khorne.

I like the short range guns more than making ANOTHER carrier (though you're idea is quite intriuging...). However, if you give it 9 WB's on the Dorsal mount, you give it a 21 WB broadside, which doesn't work. They have it right doing a total of 20. Personally, this is my favorite of the vessels.

-Zhukov

P.S. I'll post the response to you're bigger post tomorrow I think.
I am Zukov's Klaw.

"Oh mah gawd its like a giant veil was just lifted off my face and the beautiful maiden before my eyes just turned into a hideous Ork with a giant, bloody choppa."

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Modeling Question
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2011, 05:36:43 AM »
But you understand the problem? Then there are three vessels with Lance/WB. At least with the combi-deck then you can keep track of your slaughters...

There's no way to tell a NC Tyrant apart from a Dominator, that hasn't been a problem. Similarly the Carnage and Murder are identical. Overlord/Tyrant are only separated by dorsal turrets, as are Hades/Murder.

Anyway, you can differentiate your Slaughters from your "Infernos" (crap name) by reversing the position of the lance and WB decks. You can differentiate your variant Murders in the same way you already differentiate your Murders from your Carnages.

P.S. - I differentiate my Murders from my Carnages by not having any Murders. It's also how I differentiate my Tyrants from my Dominators. I think I'll keep this method in regards to Murder variants and Infernos.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 05:45:52 AM by Sigoroth »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Modeling Question
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2011, 06:08:25 AM »
The 4 Dorsal lances is odd to say the least. However, you CAN make the argument that it's a "unique ship" that doesn't have Prow weapons that take from a power source (since torps would obviously use less power than lances). But it's NOT four times more powerful than an Apoc's Dorsal. Apoc has 3 lances at 60cm and the SoP has 4 at 45cm.

I said 3 times more powerful, not 4. The official Apocalypse has 6 weapon batteries on the dorsal hardpoint. At greater than 30cm range those 6 WBs will give at best 3 dice, most typically against 6+ armour (0.5 hits) though sometimes against 5+ armour (1 hit). The 4 lances gives 2 hits. This makes it between 2 to 4 times better than the Apocalypse's dorsal (or Desolator's, or Victory's, or those of the WoS and even better than those of the Emperor or Oberon). So roughly 3 times better is a fair estimation.

Quote
BUT IT MOST CERTAINLY SHOULD HAVE A LANCE WITH THAT COMBO-DECK!!!!!! HOW STUPID CAN THEY BE TO SCREW THAT UP?!?!?!?!

Troll!  ::)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Modeling Question
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2011, 12:48:13 PM »
If it's not possible, then oh well. We're most likely going to have the same problem with the Torp Dominator/Tyrant, Dominator/NC Tyrant and Mercury/Overlord.

Without the Gothic list then the Dominator/Tyrant issue doesn't really exist.... The issue now is Hydra/Dominator.... which I have a solution for my fleet (using moulded duplicates of the 'Vengeance' wbs) although yes... it will always be a problem.

Technically it wouldn't be a problem if the Dominator had to take a NC, as the Hydra can't!

We're probably going to ignore the Mercury's existence, so no issue there. Different problem though; Ignus/Overlord. Although I suppose that I could get rid of the Overlord from Tartanus. My modeling solution here was to convert out moulded duplicates of the Dauntless wbs, so that it is 'double-gunned'.

I do think that it is fine to think that combo-decks exist. It wouldn't hurt to keep them alive. I think that GW originally made the Slaughter have 2 lances for pakage reasons, so that you could make a Murder/Carnage/Hades and a Slaughter/Devestation/Acheron/Styx out of one box. Instead of being stuck into having trouble buying the two 'basic' cruisers for chaos, the Carnage and Murder.

Offline Zhukov

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Re: Modeling Question
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2011, 01:26:51 PM »

I said 3 times more powerful, not 4. The official Apocalypse has 6 weapon batteries on the dorsal hardpoint. At greater than 30cm range those 6 WBs will give at best 3 dice, most typically against 6+ armour (0.5 hits) though sometimes against 5+ armour (1 hit). The 4 lances gives 2 hits. This makes it between 2 to 4 times better than the Apocalypse's dorsal (or Desolator's, or Victory's, or those of the WoS and even better than those of the Emperor or Oberon). So roughly 3 times better is a fair estimation.

Wow where did I look that had an Apoc with three dosal lances  ???
My bad on that one, three times better is a fair comparison.

-Zhukov
I am Zukov's Klaw.

"Oh mah gawd its like a giant veil was just lifted off my face and the beautiful maiden before my eyes just turned into a hideous Ork with a giant, bloody choppa."