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Author Topic: CE - advice and tactics  (Read 4212 times)

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Offline Silent Requiem

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CE - advice and tactics
« on: May 19, 2009, 03:19:06 PM »
Because of advice given in another thread, I am taking a serious look at starting CE. Rather than derail that more general thread, I thought I would start a new one specifically for CE.

I'm looking to build a fleet with an almost civilian feel. Something that you might expect from a pirate band or group of refugees or travelling gypsys. I also hate losing ships.

Now, in many games focusing on one particular aspect of game mechanics or combat is the best way to develop as strong build. In BFG this might translate into the all Nightshade fleets I have read about on other forums. However, is this really the best way to build a strong, flexible fleet?

If the answer is yes, or mostly yes, which weapon system is it best to emphasise? All of the Eldar weapon systems are boosted in power, but is one head and shoulders above the rest?

I would also appreciate a fluff point of view. For example, if a fleet is not being constantly resupplied by friendly factories, are reusable lances (which fire light) a better choice than torpedoes (which are one use only)? Are certain classes of ship easier to build than others?

And how much defensive ordinance do CE require? Do holofields completely make up for the lack of turrets, or do I need masses of fighters?

-Silent Requiem

Offline Volandum

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 04:35:11 PM »
Losing ships - I started Eldar because I hate losing ships as well. This is helped somewhat by an approach focussing on standoff ordnance, and this is where Eldar benefit significantly in terms of stopping power - you can't stop things reliably with Hunters (nor can you also pull them away).

Weapons systems: the Pulsar is 7/8 hits, i.e. 1.75 lances. On Lock On it goes to 1.734375 hits, that's 2.3125 locked on normal lances. In other words, two Hemlocks, locked on, hit harder than a Locking On Hades. Suicidal Hemlocks are lethal, and a squadron of 5-6 will handily knock out a cruiser or cripple a battleship. Bring the squadron back to its senses with a pair of torpedoes.

The Torpedo is a rerolled normal torpedo, which because of its near-immunity to turrets can be launched safely in twos. When two Eldar torpedoes hit an escort it probably blows up. This is not close to true for normal torpedoes - if 2 torpedoes from a Cobra hit a Sword it probably stops one with its turrets and the other kills with 1/3 chance. A pair of Eldar torpedoes kill a Sword with more like 75% chance. This is very effective against escorts of all kinds (whose shields make Hemlocks somewhat less effective, though a Locked On Hemlock squadron will still easily kill the best part of an escort squadron.) It's also the most efficient weapons system against Eldar (Aconite guns do more damage for cost, but Nightshades beat Aconites when you remember you get many more of the Nightshades to take hits.) and Necrons (Hemlocks are reliable for making them brace, but then the Hemlocks are not so damaging.)

The Weapons Battery is between 0% and 130% or so more effective than normal batteries. IN prows, for instance, make bad targets, as you might as well be firing normal batteries. Torpedoes are generally preferable, but of course they take a lot of special orders to keep firing.

All Nightshade fleets are effective, but you are very heavily reliant on command checks, and it's usually a good idea to pick up Void Stalkers when you can. You basically have three good ships - the Void Stalker, the Hemlock and the Nightshade - and two mediocre ones - the Eclipse and the Aurora.

You should not try to compete in ordnance fights with fighters vs enemy bombers - particularly not with Tau. You should have a healthy respect for enemy bombers, and try to prevent their doing too much VP damage by spreading hits out among your escort squadrons. A preferable approach is to inflict sufficient pain to disable the carriers. Instead of an Eclipse, for instance, you could take 6 Hemlocks. Tougher, and much better at promoting suffering. If they don't have their carriers in their front line their ability to bomb you into submission (or stop your torpedoes) goes down significantly.

Offline horizon

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 06:31:03 PM »
Volandum made a real good summary there.

Quote
Bring the squadron back to its senses with a pair of torpedoes.
Since SR will be a fluff player I cannot imagine him doing such a (in potential) suicide thing on his own ships. The 'Volandum-Manoeuvre' is not for 'in character' players.
(I still find the idea behind it as gruesome as magnificent in one.)

In the 'mediocre' list I would add the Aconite. Maybe a tad expensive, but those 5 batteries are quite effective. The Aconite has proven one of my greatest killers in the Eldar fleet. Don't mix them in a Nightshade squadron and to a lesser extend in a Hemlock squadron.

Your worst enemies will be Necrons, a tailored Chaos fleet (I hate tailoring so I hope your opponents do as well) and a well played Tau carrier fleet.

Offline Volandum

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 07:02:57 PM »
BH, what did you say about mixing Aconites and other escorts? I remember the topic of a 4/5-NS + 1 Aconite squadron came up some time ago, which is still mostly a torpedo squadron but it has substantial firepower. Fair enough about the fluff, maybe his opponents will do him the favour of bombing my escorts then.

Tailored Chaos? I tend to build most of my Chaos fleets around a core of Devastations and Carnages, and I think that they are coincidentally the best ships against Eldar. Were you thinking something else?

EDIT: I should add that WBs rarely get the chance to lock on, unlike the WBs of other races, so for instance Carnages may well make significantly better use of their batteries against IN prows than Aconites.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:08:58 PM by Volandum »

Offline horizon

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 07:21:39 PM »
Your core (the best core) of Carnages and Devastation is good against all fleets. But I think Chaos can even go more anti-Eldar. I know you like to add Archerons and Desolators. A tailored anti-Eldar fleet would forgo those options and add Carnages for example.

I think having an Aconite in such a squadron hampers speed of the faster Nightshades and Hemlocks. Also: torps do not like blastmarkers, weapon batteries create them. Given, in lot of cases you have more targets but in the instance you only have one you will have to forgo batteries or take a risk of rolling sixes.
In a Hemlock squadron that downfall does not exist.

Offline Volandum

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 07:41:05 PM »
I see, all good points. Thank you.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 08:42:01 PM »
The Aconite is funny little monster. A little too expensive and a little too slow. But if you are using it to boost the WB's of a Nightshade squadron you can always have it at the front with the Nightshades overtaking when attacking and then moving back to its original formation.

On the not wanting to cause blast markers, I always try to shoot at a different target with my WB's and torps respectively. And try to have a squadron of hemlocks add their firepower to the shieldless target (cap ship).

But then if you go for 'pure' torp squadrons all you have to worry about is the command check to reload. Makes life a lot simpler.

However I am fond of the 4 Nightshades + 1 Hellebore + 1 Aconite squadron just for the shear coolness factor. It's not as cost effective as a Nightshade or Hemlock squadron, but it is more versatile (and awesome!  :)).   

Cheers,

RayB
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline Volandum

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 09:47:30 PM »
More versatile? You still do better with 5 NS and an Aconite, and taking the Hemlock somewhere else.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 11:30:38 PM »
Hemlock? Assuming a typo, the Hellebore adds a Pulsar to the 10WB's which makes the squadron useable if the reload is failed. Hence more versatile.

Cheers,

RayB
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!

Offline Volandum

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2009, 02:57:56 AM »
Not a typo - usually it's not hard to find 5pts to get the NS and Hemlock. The pulsar lance really doesn't get any benefit from being in the NS squadron, and it's not like putting WBs in the NS squadron so you don't get blast marker interference - you might as well fire off lances separately.

There are lots of weapons (mostly ordnance) which will pick out a Hellebore from an escort squadron, so it's not quite safe to cover it with NS.

Offline RayB HA

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Re: CE - advice and tactics
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 07:45:35 PM »
Indeed, the Hellebore is still vastly overpriced in comparison to the other Eldar escorts. And so it is only worth getting to add character to your squadron, which usually means having a less competetive fleet.

Each to thier own. I find that Eldar are overpowered enough that you can get away with eccentric choices.  ;)

Cheers,

RayB     
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When I joined the Corp we didn't have any fancy smancy tanks! We had sticks! Two sticks and a rock for an entire platoon, and we had to share the rock!