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Offline The Dog

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SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« on: February 28, 2010, 10:01:22 PM »
Here is a Middle Earth Selector, it is a Work in Progress. The Selector is designed to fight other Warmaster armies, my friends are humouring me as I am willing to spend hundreds of pounds on the army.  I have seen many army lists and felt they did not reflect my view of a Sauron Third Age army.

So thoughts people?
                                                SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.10
For the Third Age 3018-3019,  the War of the Ring includes armies from Mordor and Dol Guldur.

TROOP                   Type            Atk    Hit  Armour  Command  Unit  Points    Min/ Special
                                                                     Size  Per Unit  Max
Snaga                   Infantry        2/15    3      0      -2/20   3       20 }   6/10   *1
Orcs                    Infantry        2       3      6+     -2/20   3       20 }         *2
Uruk-hai Bow            Infantry        3/30    3      6+     -       3       65 }   2/6        
Uruk-hai                Infantry        3       3      5+     -       3       60 }    
Trolls                  Infantry        4       4      5+     -2/20   3       100    -/2   *3
Olog-hai                Infantry        4       4      4+     -       3       145    -/1        
Wights                  Infantry        3       4      6+     -       3       90     -/1   *4r
Mirkwood Giant Spiders  Infantry        3       3      0      -       3       40     -/1   *5r
Wargs                   Cavalry         2       3      0      -       3       40 }         *6
Warg Scouts             Cavalry         2/15a   3      6+     -       3       60 }   -/8   *7
Warg Riders             Cavalry         3       3      6+     -       3       60 }          

Servant of Sauron       General         +2                    9               125    1*    *8
Nazgûl/Uruk-hai         Hero            +1                    8:60            80     -/2        
Orc Hero                Hero            0                     7:20            25     -/2   *9
Orc Shaman              Wizard          0                     6:20            30     -/1   *10r

Warg for Orcs & Uruks   Special Mount   +1                                    +10    -/1   *11
Fell Beast for Nazgûl   Monster Mount   +2                                    +80    -/1   *12
Dark Sorcerer           Special Wizard                                        +35    -/1*  *13
Stakes for Uruk-Hai     Low obstacle                                  3       +5     -/4   *14
a=shoot all round
r=Restrictions apply see special rules.


ARMY RULES
The Sauron army is essentially an army of non-Orcs and an ablative shield of Orcs, no one cares about the Orcs. To represent this, the Sauron army calculates when it must withdraw from the battle in a different way to other armies.  Snaga and Orcs do not count towards the army’s break value, all other units count as usual.  Snaga and Orcs cannot hold objectives.


SPECIAL RULES
1. Snaga. Snaga suffer double the command penalty for distance when given an order, so up to 20cm no penalty, up to 40cm -2, up to 60cm -4 and so on.
A Snaga unit is allowed to shoot as if it had bows but its range is reduced to 15cm.
The enemy does not gain Victory Points for a destroyed unit or stands of Snaga.

2. Orcs. Orcs suffer double the command penalty for distance when given an order, so up to 20cm no penalty, up to 40cm -2, up to 60cm -4 and so on.
The enemy does not gain Victory Points for a destroyed unit or stands of Orcs.

3. Trolls. Trolls suffer double the command penalty for distance when given an order, so up to 20cm no penalty, up to 40cm -2, up to 60cm -4 and so on. Trolls cannot have magic items.

4. Wights. Wights can only be used to defend an area, like a castle or a piece of terrain and cannot leave it.  Wights are Undead.
Undead units never act on initiative. An Undead unit only moves in the Command phase if given orders.
Undead units are unaffected by the -1 Command penalty for enemy within 20cm, by the -1 Combat penalty for fighting terrifying troops, by the Confusion rule - they cannot become confused for any reason.
Wights attacks always inflict a hit on a score of 4+ regardless of whether the enemy is in the open, defended, or fortified. Enemy otherwise count as in the open, defended, or fortified in all respects (eg charge bonuses count or don't count depending on status). Wights cannot be driven back by shooting and do not roll for drive backs. They cause terror as described in the Warmaster rulebook. Wights cannot have magic items.

5. Mirkwood Giant Spiders.  Giant Spiders can only be used with your opponents agreement.
Mirkwood Giant Spiders always count as being in defended cover when in woods, also they do not suffer -1 to command when in woods.  They suffer -1 Command when in the open. Mirkwood Giant Spiders can only be brigaded with Mirkwood Giant Spiders.  Mirkwood Giant Spiders cannot have magic items.

6. Wargs, move 20cm into, in and out of woods and steep hills and suffers -1 to attack whilst in this terrain.  Wargs can be pursued by infantry whilst in woods or on steep hills. Wargs do not suffer the dense terrain -1 Command Penalty whilst in woods or on steep hills.  If the unit charges against an enemy in the open it receives an additional +1 Attack modifier in the same way as chariots and monsters. Wargs cannot have magic items.

7. Warg Scouts.  Are allowed to shoot as if it had bows but the range is reduced to 15cm. Warg Scouts can shoot behind or to the side as well as to the front. Just measure the range from any stand edge, front, side or rear. They can therefore shoot at enemy charging them from any direction.

8. The Servant of Sauron is the Army General

9. Orc Hero, has a command radius of 20cm, not 60cm.

10. Orc Shaman.  If fighting other Middle Earth armies Orc Shaman can only be used with your opponents agreement.
Orc Shaman can cast spells like a Wizard and can carry a magic item restricted to a Wizard if desired. Orc Shaman have a command radius of 20cm.

11. Warg. Any Character but a Nazgul can ride a Warg. A Warg adds +1 to its riders attacks.  Note this is like a common mount and is treated the same way as characters on foot as per the standard character rules.

12. Fell Beast. The Witch King, Khamûl or the other 7 Nazgûl can ride a Fell Beast. A Fell Beast can fly increasing its rider's move to 100cm and adding +2 to its rider's attacks. A unit joined by a character riding a Fell Beast causes terror in its enemies.

13. Dark Sorcerer. The General may be a Wizard, like The Witch King, Khamûl or the Mouth of Sauron. The Dark Sorcerer can cast spells like a Wizard and can carry a magic item restricted to a Wizard if desired. He can re-roll a failed spell on any dice result except a 1. If a spell is failed because a 1 is rolled then no re-roll is permitted.

14. Stakes.  Use the Stake rules from Warmaster Medieval Armies p79.  Both types of Uruk-hai can use stakes.



Dark Sorcerer Spells

BLACK BREATH (TOUCH OF DEATH (from the Tomb Kings list))
4+ to cast, Range – Touching
The Wizard's enemies crumble to dust as he smites them with the corrupting Touch of Death.
The Wizard can cast this spell if he has joined a unit in combat. The spell can be cast on any single enemy unit that it is touching the unit the Wizard has joined. The target unit takes three attacks worked out in the usual way. Any hits scored are carried over into the first round of combat and count as having been struck in the first round for purposes of working out combat results.

VOICE OF COMMAND (from the Empire list)
5+ to hit, Range 30cm
The Wizard's voice booms out across the battlefield directing troops above the tumult of combat with the magical Voice of
Command.
The spell can be cast on any unengaged friendly unit within range regardless of whether the Wizard can see it or not. The spell affects only a single unit, never a brigade. The unit can be moved just as if it had received an order in the Command phase. Character stands that have joined the unit will not move with it: they remain where they are.

LASH OF SAURON (like Waaagh! from the Orc list but not 4+)
5+ to cast, Range 30cm
A dark power billows from the Sorcerer filling his troops with the destructive vigour of Sauron.
The spell can be cast on any engaged friendly unit within range regardless of whether the Wizard can see it or not. The effect lasts for the duration of the following Combat phase. Every stand in the unit, including characters that have joined the unit, adds +1 to its Attacks value.

DOOM AND DESPAIR (from the Tomb Kings list)
4+ to cast, Range 60cm
A dark cloud of doom and despair settles over the enemy, sapping their courage and dampening their warlike spirit.
This spell can be cast on any enemy unit within range regardless of whether the Wizard can see it or not.  The spell takes effect until the end of the opposing player's next turn.  Whilst the spell lasts the unit cannot charge and if engaged in combat will not pursue or advance. Even units that are otherwise obliged to charge, pursue, or advance will not do so if affected by Doom and Despair. Note that even Undead are not immune

Orc Shaman Spells

DARK SWARM (from BoFA Goblin Shaman list)
5+ to hit, Range 30cm no LOS
A swarm of dreaded bloodsucking bats and nameless dark horrors swirl about the foe and feast on the wounded.
This spell can be cast on an enemy unit within range regardless of whether the Wizard has line or sight or not.  The spell can cast at a target engaged in combat or not engaged in combat – it makes no difference. The Dark Swarm is worked out exactly like three ordinary shooting attacks with armour saves.  If the target is not engaged in combat hits inflicted by a Dark Swarm are counted towards drive backs just like ordinary shooting.  If the target is engaged in combat hits inflicted by a Dark Swarm are carried over into the Combat phase and count towards the combat result in the first round.

VOICE OF COMMAND (from Empire list)
5+ to hit, Range 30cm no LOS
The Wizard's voice booms out across the battlefield directing troops above the tumult of combat with the magical Voice of Command.
The spell can be cast on any unengaged friendly unit within range regardless of whether the Wizard can see it or not. The spell affects only a single unit, never a brigade. The unit can be moved just as if it had received an order in the Command phase. Character stands that have joined the unit will not move with it: they remain where they are.

LASH OF SAURON (like Waaagh! from Orc list but not 4+)
5+ to cast, Range 30cm no LOS
A dark power billows from the Sorcerer filling his troops with the destructive vigour of Sauron.
The spell can be cast on any engaged friendly unit within range regardless of whether the Wizard can see it or not. The effect lasts for the duration of the following Combat phase. Every stand in the unit, including characters that have joined the unit, adds +1 to its Attacks value.


Unit Notes
Snaga & Orcs - Morgoth bred Orcs as a mockery of Elves, Elves were probably tortured and then bent to his will.  Orcs are smaller and weaker than men and shun bright daylight.  Orcs are not brave and are forever bickering amongst themselves so they are difficult to order about. Snaga is Black Speech for slave and in this game context refers to the weakest bow/missile armed Orcs.  Orcs are armed with small curved scimitars and painted a symbol of the red Eye of Sauron on their small shields.
Snaga & Orcs are like WM Goblins.

Uruk-hai/Uruks – Sauron probably cross bred Orcs and men to produce Uruks, they first appeared in TA2475 when they stormed Ithilien and Osgiliath, they are almost man size, just as strong with amazing stamina, as “orcs” go they are intelligent and so good commanders.  They are armed with curved scimitars and painted a symbol of the red Eye of Sauron on their shields, Uruks wear a lot of black metal armour.
Uruk-hai are like WM High Elf Spearmen and Archers (but don’t have the +1 to hit)

Trolls - Morgoth bred trolls as a mockery of Ents. Trolls are strong, tough, with thick hides of overlapping scales and are a bit dim, they also shunned bright daylight.  There are 3 types, Stone Trolls from Trollshaw and Eriador, Cave Trolls from Moria and Hill Trolls from Gorgoroth(Mordor) and Eriador.
Trolls are like WM Ogres and have the -2/20 penalty to command like BoFA Trolls because they also are a bit thick.

Olog-hai - Sauron bred Olog-hai from Trolls so they were not dim witted and would not shun daylight.  They lived in Southern Mirkwood and Mordor Mountains.  They are twice as tall as a man, and covered in horny scales, armed with hammers and black bucklers.
Olog-hai are like WM Ogre Iron Guts as Chaos Warriors are deliberately over pointed.

Wargs - Probably descended from a First Age “Werewolf” called Draugluin, who Sauron “invented” and Morgoth “created” by breeding and magical experimenting with wolves and possessed their bodies with evil spirits, possibly the spirits of dead orcs.  Wargs in the Third Age could understand some Black Speech/Orcish, they also allowed Snaga and Orcs to ride them.  Wargs natural habitat is woods and mountains and the complicated rules reflect this.
Wargs are a mix of WM Wolf Riders and WM Dire Wolves.

Wights or Barrow Wights. The Barrow Wights were sent by the Witch King of Angmar in about TA1636 to the Barrow Downs where the Northern Dúnedain nobles were buried, these Wights then animated the dead nobles and preyed on passers-by, by feasting on their life force.  Wights would almost certainly have guarded Angmar, Dol Guldor and the passes and castles of Mordor.
Wights are like WM Ethereal Host

Mirkwood Giant Spiders are the descendants of the evil spider spirit Ungoliant, although not as big as Shelob, these giant spiders were probably “man” sized in height, intelligent, can talk to each other and weave webs.
Mirkwood Giant Spiders have no WM unit similar to them.

Characters – The Witch King, Khamûl or the Mouth of Sauron being the best Sauron Army Wizards have the High Elf Wizards rule as Dark Sorcerers, lesser Shadow Sorcerers like Black Númenóreans would not.  Orc Heroes are small, almost insignificant except to other Orcs and do not have loud voices, hence their poor leadership and small command range.


Design Notes
This selector borrows its break point style from The Bretonnians. The Snaga and Orcs use a lot of the Bretonnain peasants rules, its Characters are mix of the very good (Witch King on Fell Beasts) to the worst leaders, Orc Hero with 0 Atk and a command distance of 20cm. Although the list can have 2 Orc Hero Characters per 1000 each Orc Hero is almost the same points as an Orc unit and it can be argued each Orc Hero does reduce the armies Break Point.  Its magic is excellent with 2 sets of spells, don’t forget that Dark Sorcerer re-roll.

Although it’s a horde army it does play differently to an Orc or Skaven army.  By having 6-8 units per 1000 that do not count towards the armies break point is hard to justify but I will try.  Snaga and Orcs are throw away troops and this rule aids you as the Commander to, yes, throw them away.  If it helps think of the same amount of Snaga and Orcs units just off the table milling around and not contributing to the battle.  If they did count towards a single break point then most of the Snaga and Orcs would end up at the back of the army providing just a break point and not contributing to the battle.  It can be argued the more Snaga and Orcs you pay for the lower your armies break point will be.

By careful placement of your Snaga and Orcs, treat them as throw away slaves, use them as an ablative shield just like Sauron did.  Use your Wargs to the max, dominate the woods, Ok hide in the woods and charge out, as this army has no heavy cavalry, chariots, monsters, artillery and flyers  you will need all the help you can get.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 10:09:30 PM by The Dog »

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 09:12:13 PM »
Snaga and Orcs were over pointed at 30 now 25 for -1 Command and the other special rules penalising them.
Snaga and Orcs Min was 5 now 6.
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Offline David Wasilewski

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 02:48:23 PM »
Sigh..... Steve is never happier than when he has his calculator out trying to work out a way to out Math - win his opponents.

We'll have to see how this army plays and whether its too powerful or not....

Dave Vos

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 11:43:01 PM »
Changes are in red since the last update.  I have had a couple of games and the two break points was a nice idea, but they did not provide a balanced game, Snaga and Orcs are so easy to kill, in one game the Sauron army lost 14 units to just 2, so the next idea is to be a bit more like the Bretonnians.

Snaga and Orcs back to 30 points and have a max /1000. Also they don’t count towards army break point.
Trolls down to 100 from 105 (WM Ogres cost 105 and have a small disadvantage, Sauron Trolls have -1 Command)

From Design Notes
Although it’s a horde army it should play differently to an Orc or Skaven list.  By having 6-8 units per 1000 that do not count towards the armies break point is hard to justify but I will try.  Snaga and Orcs are throw away troops and this rule aids you as the Commander to, yes, throw them away.  If it helps, think of the same amount of Snaga and Orcs units just off the table milling around and not contributing to the battle.  If they did count towards a single break point then most of the Snaga and Orcs would end up at the back of the army providing adds to the break point and not contributing to the battle.  It can be argued the more Snaga and Orcs you pay for, the lower your armies break point will be.

Offline azrael71

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 08:16:01 AM »
A very comprehensive list.

It is a great shame that BOFA (I know this list is for WM) gets no real love or attention as it has great potential. >:(

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 09:12:12 AM »
Yes looking at the views there are a lot of interest to the posts, but no replies.  :(

I have budding selectors for Saruman/Isengard and Misty Mountain Orcs, because model wise they are one and the same.  My next army will probably be a Haradrim (budding Selector almost done) and so I will have an Araby army as well.

Although I am unlikely to ever get an Easterling Army I have still done a budding selector so I am doing the “bad” armies, if anyone wanted to do the “good” armies I will help them get going.  Doing a selector is easy compared to testing and balancing it.

A few more people posting and it might spark more discussion and so interest, so yes it does have great potential.
.

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 06:05:25 PM »
Changes for 0.4
Snaga and Orcs now 20 points was 30, they really are almost useless for the points, although this seems ludicrously cheap & it is, they have Command -1 and cannot use initiative to charge.  Having recently played 2 games v High Elf and lost convincingly with them at 30 points.  Re-pointed them to 20 points, played 2 games v Dwarfs lost one and drew the other game, so I still have NOT won a game.  As a by product of the 20 points the min/max must be increased to 8min/10max was 6/8.

The two Dwarf games were very enjoyable for both sides, previous games the Sauron army just got slaughtered.

- Olog-hai 145 was 150 pointed like WM Ogre Iron Guts as Chaos Warriors are deliberately over pointed.
- Trolls -/2max was -/1
- Warg Riders & Wargs -/6max was -/4
- Both Uruk-hai -/6max was -/4
- To reaffirm Mirkwood Giant Spiders “always” count as being in defended cover when in woods, so even if moving with push back or follow ups etc.
- Stakes can only be used by both types of Uruk-hai was available to Snaga & Orcs as well, Snaga & Orcs are just too unreliable to do as they are ordered.

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 10:44:15 PM »
0.5 Changes are in Red
- Victory Points unless wholly objective based should not be used for this selector as the armies doctrine is to use about 200 points /1000 for wearing down the enemy by attrition and so are deliberately being lost.
- Orc Shaman Spell List (finally caught up with the other Dark army lists)

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 12:20:26 PM »
0.6 Changes are in Red
In my trial games the Wargs were out performing the Warg riders with bows and they cost less points.  It was getting to the point where I was thinking of not using Warg riders with bows.

So I thought I would add another troop type to see if that improved there usability.  So like their foot equivalents Snaga and Orcs, the Wargs now have riders with bows and without, called respectively Warg Scouts(bows) and Warg Riders(without bows) for the same points.

The Warg Rider(without bows) is probably more in keeping with the style of warfare from the Tolkien books, but lets see how they play.

In versions up tp 0.5 to add to the confusion I did have the Warg Riders armed with bows, in 0.6 the Warg Riders have been renamed to Warg Scouts.  In 0.6 the Warg Riders do not have bows.


Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 08:10:40 PM »
0.7 Changes are in Red
Snaga, Orcs and Trolls have been given an overhaul, the -1 to Command is too harsh and has been replaced with something equally harsh but does allow more movement near its Characters.
Snaga, Orcs and Trolls suffer double the command penalty for distance when given an order, so up to 20cm no penalty, up to 40cm -2, up to 60cm -4 and so on. (This game mechanic is used in BoFA)

Snaga and Orcs being cowardly can now initiative charge flanks and rears.
Snaga and Orcs cannot use initiative to charge enemy frontally – though they can use initiative to charge enemy flanks or rears or to evade as usual.

Orc Hero (25 points) and Shaman (30 points) have lost their restriction to order only Snaga, Orcs and Warg Riders although in keeping with the army, it is too restrictive and the characters should of had a points reduction, if the rule was kept.
Removed “they can only issue orders to Snaga, Orcs and Warg Riders other units just ignore their orders.”

I recently had a 3000 point game and the Warg Riders 3,3,6+ performed very well, so the Warg Scouts 2/15a,3,6+ will probably be removed from future lists.

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 12:54:41 PM »
0.8 Changes are in Red in the first post.
Just had another game, lost again, but the Snaga and Orcs can manoeuvre very well when within 20cm of a character , but now they are too good for just 20 points, so sigh, back up to 25 points.

My current thoughts are that the Orcs might still be too cheap for 25 points, so might go up to 30 points, because they can almost manoeuvre as well as other units with the Command -2/20 rule, and don’t count towards the break point, more testing is required.

So the actual changes are Snaga and Orcs up to 25 points, was 20, min/max changes to 6/8 was 8/10.

Offline fracas

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2010, 02:13:23 PM »
can a general take both dark sorcerer and fell beast?

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2010, 11:20:06 PM »
Yes, just like the Witch King at the Siege of Minas Tirith, but don’t let him talk to any women or Hobbits.

Game wise, personally, I would let a hero ride a Fell Beast and go in to combat and let the general issue orders and cast magic. (Just my two cents.)

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 10:55:34 AM by The Dog »

Offline fred

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 09:22:24 PM »
After one of the games we discussed if the Snaga/Orcs should still count as VP if destroyed, as they are still causing attrition to the attacker?

It certainly makes sense that they don't count to BP.

This army does have a lot of spells available to it.

We discussed adding a clarification that when the Wargs charge from a wood they only move 20cm.

Offline The Dog

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Re: SAURON ARMY SELECTOR v0.1 for Warmaster not BoFA
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 10:31:26 PM »
Fred you ol’ worm (friend) you have finally crawled out of the woodwork in to the bright forum sunlight.

My nemesis has arrived!   :P

Yes we did agree that they should count towards VP if destroyed because of attrition, however as I have not yet won a game counting them at 0 VPs I am reluctant to hamper my track record even further.  I think next time you should be the Sauron army and I your Empire Army then lets see what you think?

Yes three spell casters in 2000 points and one of them a Nazgul reroller, but for all my cackling they don’t seem to do much.

Magic, Wargs and Orcs/Snaga with 0VP are good, however lack of Knights, chariots, monsters, artillery and flyers do appear to outweigh these pluses.

Yes Wargs moving/charging out from woods should only move 20cm and this will be clarified in the next update.

So your turn to be the evil eye, what say you?