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Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: Lex on November 03, 2012, 11:41:30 AM

Title: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 03, 2012, 11:41:30 AM
To all and sundry..   

I will not try and revive the old style EuroGT, which had a great run for over 10 years and 10+ events in that periode, but I am willing to give a new event a go in the first half year of 2013. To be more precise, sometime in the months March-May.

I do have some locational options in the fair and historical city of Bergen op Zoom, with, and without attached hotel(rooms) but I need to get a handle on the amount of people that would be interested. For this I will put a description of what I envision this weekend to be.

1) First and foremost, the intention behind the weekend is primarily to be a SOCIAL event, in the traditional style of EuroGT, a get-together, where games are non-competitive and discussion/debate are a logical part of the set-up.
2) As this is a gaming event, game we will. I will explain this a bit more in 3), but ideally we will have a BIG walk-in game on friday, starting in the later afternoon, with new arrivals actually bringing reinforcements to a multi-player battle on a BIG table.  On saterday and sunday the aim will be to have at least 2 rounds, probably 3 on saterday.
3) The focus of the games on Saterday and Sunday will be on PLAYTESTING. I will work with the playtest-team to have two distinctive packages of testable rules. One for each day.
4) The aim is to allow those that need to travel from afar to have a weekend of "fun", but registration for either the saterday or the sunday for locals/people that wont be able to stay over, should be an option too.

So, I will put up a poll (or two), please respond in the poll or in the thread, and give me an idea of the feasibility of the event !

Lex
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Big Red on November 03, 2012, 09:04:05 PM
I would love to be able to come along to this event but my wife says a definite "No" to flying to Europe, from Australia, for a weekend of wargaming!!

I tried to explain that we were going to be playtesting rules but she wouldn't relent....  :(
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 03, 2012, 09:26:33 PM
If there is enough people comming, I will look into setting up some Google hangout to allow participation in the games/discussions....

Alternatively....  make it a holliday and visit some nice stuff, including the medival city of Bergen op Zoom   8)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Dobbsy on November 05, 2012, 01:03:05 AM
Big Red, maybe we could hook up on the day with the guys in Europe via a skype/facetime/satellite broadcast  ;D It would truly be an "universal" international event then.
 
Euro chaps - does anyone have an iPad?  :)
Title: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: frogbear on November 05, 2012, 05:29:31 AM
I am with Dobbsy. If it is possible i will try to provide some Australian representation as well if it is available.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 05, 2012, 08:04:46 AM
Big Red, maybe we could hook up on the day with the guys in Europe via a skype/facetime/satellite broadcast  ;D It would truly be an "universal" international event then.
 
Euro chaps - does anyone have an iPad?  :)

Something along these lines can be arranged....   A google hangout would work too....  allows for multiple users on webcam at the same time !
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 05, 2012, 08:10:03 AM
I adjusted the Poll for all you antipodeans and crossatlantians  8)

In line with the earlier comments in the thread....  I am all for setting up some regular sessions online, to go over questions with life examples and possibly to play a game over a table that is on two continents.......
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Guthwine on November 05, 2012, 03:27:06 PM
Definitetly interested! If the date is known a few months (4-6) in advance, it shouldnt be a problem. Maybe I can drag some other Austrians with me. :)

Since our Prime Minister was announced as the Australian PM we can officially represent Australia as well. :D
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jo on November 05, 2012, 07:19:52 PM
I will come over for at least a day, 3 days if the home front can be secured.

Depending on the venue I can bring along some Belgian beers - how's that for motivation!

I will check in my gaming group whether somebody else would be willing to come - Belgium is not that far away...
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Claus on December 08, 2012, 11:10:10 AM
Interested I´m for sure.....if I know well in advance the exact dates and can arrange it with my projects....sure would be glad to see Bergen again.

Cheers
Claus
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: spiritusXmachina on December 30, 2012, 08:57:15 AM
I would come. But I need the date at least 3 months in advance.

Greetings,
Gerald
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on January 13, 2013, 04:26:35 PM
Hi,

would try to join, but need to know the date soon.

Cheers,

Jürgen
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: wmchaos2000 on January 22, 2013, 10:41:05 PM
So, is there a date set?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on January 23, 2013, 01:00:42 PM
Not finalized yet. Venue wont be a problem, I am talking with lodgings and trying to get a decent quote for roomrates.

Timingwise I still want to do this before summerhollidays, and with enough leeway to allow those with busy schedules to participate so we are looking at a spring / May-ish weekend (which has me steering clear of  Pentacaust......)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: David Wasilewski on January 23, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
I would love to come but I won't be able to justify to the wife why my hobby needs me to leave the country with the travelling costs that entails!

Dave
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on January 23, 2013, 01:15:14 PM
I would love to come but I won't be able to justify to the wife why my hobby needs me to leave the country with the travelling costs that entails!

Dave

The viable alternative is to propose a nice weekend in a historical town with shopping and dining opportunities....  8-)  and depending on hotels, we have a VERY nice one that also has a Spa...

THat way you "only" need to explain why she gets the creditcard for shopping while you meet "Da Boyz"
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Getlord on January 23, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
In such circumstances I would probably come. With wife :-)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on January 23, 2013, 03:57:19 PM
This is the hotel that we actually used to host previous EuroGT's. After remodeling their downstairs conference rooms into the Spa they dont have the space to host a "big" event, but I can find room elsewhere in Bergen as a venue and this would definitively be one of the options for people to stay...

http://www.fletcherstadsparkhotel.nl/en/ (http://www.fletcherstadsparkhotel.nl/en/)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: spiritusXmachina on January 24, 2013, 07:05:40 AM
Date around 10th-12th Mai would be my favourite as the 10th is an in-between day and it's easy for me to get that one free.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on January 24, 2013, 08:43:55 AM
That then would be the weekend after Ascension Day ?

I will coordinate that with Da Boss, if that works out we will start working towards it !!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: spiritusXmachina on April 15, 2013, 01:50:03 PM
Since there is no official announcement until now I have to say that I cannot participate even if the date of 10-12th of may would stand. Sorry.

Greetings,
Gerald
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on April 15, 2013, 05:08:10 PM
Oh  srry Gerald (and others)

Real Life got seriously in the way of pick up almost everything other then reading and modding this forum.... (yikes, that means even PLAYING games!!   ::)  )

The plan still stands to host a small scale event, but as things stand now I will need to port the initiative over the summer months. Think later half of October.............
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Alexander on April 21, 2013, 03:19:55 PM
I am interested to go to this event. Somewhere in October would be ok for me
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: wmchaos2000 on April 30, 2013, 12:23:34 PM
If we already are talking october, why not take a travel to sweden and The Swedish WM-Mastership in early november instead. 1-3  I believe it is. It´s during a decently big gaming event (BSK - Borås Spelkonvent = Borås Gamingevent) so there is alot of other gaming going on here in Borås that weekend. Usually 300-500 gamers.
Title: Warmaster International Playtestweekend November 2013
Post by: Lex on May 12, 2013, 10:47:22 PM
With a lot of work interference in the first half of this year, the Warmaster Playtest weekend got "postponed". Luckily I got a new incentive as Ed (BlackEd on the forum, mastercaster of the ingenious Chaos thingies and doodads) informed me that he WILL be ver in the first weekend of November. So wheels have been set in motion to have some social and or more competitive gaming on in the weekend of 1,2 & 3 november 2013, in the fair city of Bergen op Zoom.

Feedback of those willing to commit to joining us that weekend will be much appreciated as our numbers will dictate the size of venue and other logistics.

Heads up:  this weekend coincides with the Gaming weekend in Sweden as mentioned earlier and on saterday nov 2d TSoA hosts Crisis in the nearby belgium city of Antwerp.

Lex
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on May 12, 2013, 10:48:07 PM
And I reset and reopend the poll for the new date !!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: BlackEd on May 14, 2013, 02:12:42 PM
I'll be there Lex!  I can bring my Samurai army (Nippon army).
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2013, 07:57:29 PM
Marked it in the Poll ??
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: BlackEd on May 20, 2013, 10:09:45 PM
Yes I did!   8)
Title: Warmaster International Playtestweekend: 1-3 November 2013
Post by: Lex on July 07, 2013, 03:34:07 PM
OK gang, grab your agendas and pen in the 1st weekend of november for some serious gaming/fun !!

I am negotiating with a nice venue in the centre of Bergen op Zoom, hotel rooms will be limited and room sharing may be mandatory, but it is one of the best eats in town, nicely located and HAUNTED at boot !!

(and even if this would fall through I have a second option ready)

We aim at getting together anything between 10 and 30 players together, the Bergen op Zoom location is a good and easy trip (for those that did not make it before) and centrally located near Belgium (and even accessible for some of the French, we are just of the TGV tracject..!)

The event will primarily be a social gaming event, and as such is open for day-players as well (as long as you let me know in advance you are coming, so that I can set enough tables!), their will be a get-together-dinner on saturday (and fun-gaming afterwards).

All alternative armies are welcome, as are playtest suggestions for the games on saterday. On sunday we will be playtesting a "terrain/Scenery" adaptation........   8)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Getlord on July 08, 2013, 03:09:17 PM
2-3 November 2013 just to be perfectly clear?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on July 08, 2013, 03:13:53 PM
Check.

I have asked for room-rates to handle the nights from thursday on friday and sunday on monday too.... expecting most internationals to arrive before the weekend, and I think we can manage to set-up some tables for a friday evening session too.....

... but yeah, in essence the MAIN event will be on saturday and sunday. And it would be VERY good to (finally) meet in person.......    8)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: empireaddict on July 09, 2013, 09:44:59 PM
Lex,
Date noted and sounds fantastic.  But work commitments in November may prevent my attendance, I fear.  Will know closer to the time.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on July 09, 2013, 10:10:12 PM
Yeah no worries, I will keep posting updates over the next weeks when I have them. (Black) Ed will actually be in the UK and come over to BoZ, with enough people it always pays out considering to car-pool  B-)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on July 14, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
A quick update on the event, the venue looks to be go. I have an option on rooms (sleeping), a price for dinner on saterday and we will have a big room on the 1st floor for gaming. I am working out the final details but included indicative pricing below. Accurate data to follow during the next days !

Rooms will be app 70 per night for single use and including breakfast and around 95 per night including breakfast for doubles (with limited rooms available at the venue itself, I do prefer to have people sharing where possible!

A buffet style dinner on saterday will be around 20 per person (and prices are in Euro, just to mention that !), we frequently eat at this place ourselves, food = good and pricing decent, so we will probably also bet them to serve food around lunch and to make sure we have late service in the gaming room for drinks.

Title: Warmaster International Playtest weekend 1-3 november 2013
Post by: Lex on July 17, 2013, 12:59:22 PM
OK, all things are set in motion!

1st off, the venue I have got an option on is a  cozy little hotel/restaurant (http://www.hoteleetcafevanee.nl/) in the center of historical Bergen op Zoom. Cozy is the operative word, as they only have 5 rooms, so consider sharing a room (which will also cut-down on cost!). Rumour has it that this historical venue is haunted, so any undead or vampire count players could find themselves with unexpected assets.....  For those that visited Bergen op Zoom before (for a EuroGT event) and had a meal at the Mexican place..... this is next door on the small square near the Markiezenhof. (https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d4.284705!3d51.495718!2m2!1f222.23!2f82.96!4f75!2m5!1e1!2m3!1sGu8ZXspSMZbYh8juTbcxaA!2e0!7e11&fid=5)

Roomrates:

single use, per night, including tourist tax and VAT:         €66,50
double use, per ROOM, including tourist tax and VAT:      €92,00

Food(s):

Breakfast, per person                                                        €9,95

We will have a saturdaynight buffet style dinner (and having eaten there several times now I can honestly say, food is good!, which of course will also be open to all players, so please register for that even if you are "attending" and not "residential"                                      €18,80

When I have a better grasp of numbers attending I will see if we actually break for lunch, or allow you lot to eat-and-play.

For those players that will not, or can not stay residential there is the option to "attend" the event, you will still need to register!  and tell us if you stay for the saterdaynight buffet! Attending players will pay a "table-fee" of €5 per day. The venue will be open to the general public, so those that wanna drop in and say hello, feel free to do so !

Should the rooms at vanEE fill up, I will scourge the town for other sleeping arrangements........

Registrations should go to lex.van.rooy@gmail.com, with the subject mentioning Warmaster Weekend. After registering I will contact individuals on (methods of) payment.

I will need registration as soon as possible!!!, to be able to book the option (and get a 10% discount that will flow back towards your actual cost!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on July 22, 2013, 10:13:54 PM
First couple of registrations are coming in, the international mix at this moment

Dutch
Belgium
English
American

there was intresse from Poland... (keeping my fingers crossed an that one coming true!!), Germany, Denmark and Austria.

Remember that if I get the option fully filled out, actual pricing for rooms etc. will even drop a bit (or we arrange to have that discount as free booze......)

So check your agenda's and start planning !
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Big Red on July 25, 2013, 08:16:00 AM
I have been told in no uncertain terms that I am NOT allowed to attend a weekend in the Netherlands to play wargames....

I still think she is being totally unreasonable!   >:( :o
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on July 25, 2013, 10:08:59 AM
I have been told in no uncertain terms that I am NOT allowed to attend a weekend in the Netherlands to play wargames....

I still think she is being totally unreasonable!   >:( :o

Well, I tend to just travel local for my games......  which means that I did mostly north-west european events, the UK and Austria, in addition to Dutch, Belgium, German and French venues.....

Transatlantic is ok, as long as it goes from my overall budget, and is not done more then once per 5 years......

What DOES help is to make it a family-trip, and make sure there is enough on the VISA to allow her to go to the SPA and/or go shopping during the two days of gaming.......   8)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: kyussinchains on July 25, 2013, 01:30:37 PM
no way I'll be able to make it this year, however if this is intended to be an annual event, I might be tempted to build a family holiday around it next year......
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on July 25, 2013, 02:20:37 PM
EuroGT used to be a yearly event as well........ so yeah, if there are enough people interested that could be a way to go!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: David Wasilewski on July 25, 2013, 10:31:16 PM
I would love to come too but she who must be obeyed isn't buying into it!

Have a good one guys!

One day.......


Dave
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on August 05, 2013, 02:23:07 PM
Tentative attendance for the Warmasterplaytest event...

3-5 Dutch, some of them local
1 or more Belgium players, although probably on day-passes
2-3 Brits, maybe a stray Canadian?
At least one Yankee, probably more ( and we might talk them into bringing over some stock).
1 German and 1 Austrian in Germany ( which I guess is similar to an Englishman in NewYork)

Although indicated they might come, allas, no great Danes.... 

On the wishlist... French and Spanish, Greek and maybe a stay Viking?

I will try to have a Webcam on for the people down-under that want to join some of the discussions!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: RepublicsFury on August 13, 2013, 11:22:36 PM
Havevwe considered hosting it in America atbthe same time and having live feed to and from both places with maybe a skype or two setup and running so players could discuss events?

I can host it here in Texas but I think we'd need more notice. 

Thoughts?

- Karl
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on August 14, 2013, 08:28:20 AM
Simultaneous would be a tad hard with the time-difference. But I already discussed setting up webcam/skype/hangout's during the event. that it in itself is doable.

As we aim to have rounds of games with particular rules alterations, and a bit of discussion after each round I will post a schedule for the event once we are a bit nearer to the date.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Edmund2011 on August 17, 2013, 01:14:24 AM

On the wishlist... French and Spanish, Greek and maybe a stay Viking?


Man, finally I won't be able to go.. :(  ...at least this year  ;)

It would have been nice to go to play and meet you all. I hope there will be more WM events soon.

Pictures of the weekend please!!  :)



Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Heiko on October 28, 2013, 06:24:33 PM
At the weekend my son and me will join the party with our armies. I'm looking forward for it.


By the way - I will bring some "spare miniatures" (Orcs/Goblins/Chaos) with me and hope for some "trading opportunities". I'm looking for: Undead Chariots / Dwarf-Anvil / Dwarf-Throne / probably some Artillery of the Dwarfs.

Greetings - Heiko -
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Heiko on November 03, 2013, 08:52:12 PM
Back home, exhausted.

My brain is filled with huge amounts of impressions, is was wonderfull!

Thanks to all of you, thank you Lex!


Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Alexander on November 04, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
I really enjoyed playing warmaster against the veterans.  I had not played for 10+ years or so and was forgetting important parts of the rules and tactics (drive back etc) but my empire army didn't get defeated as bad as I expected even though my dice rolling was substandard. 1 loss, 1 win and a draw ;D

Thanks for organising the event it was fun and I learned a lot!

Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on November 04, 2013, 01:12:58 PM
Hi,

good to see you all and have several nice combats. Thanks to Lex for the organisation.

Most of the tested rules should get standard rules.

Scouting: + should be in the official advanced rules
Roads: + should be in the official Advanced rules
Support:+ should be in the official standard rules. Makes infantery a better choice
Flank: + should be in the official Standard rules
Command: +/- my recommendation: only within first round of the match and no charging. Max. 2 moves instead of 3.
Advanced rules

Front or flank: fix 45 rule within official rule book to avoid further discussions

Combat: Minimum 1 attack should be within the official rules.

It would be great to have a complete online rule book with all additions. Would be happy to do a translation in German to get more people to the Game.

Regards,
Jürgen
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 02:20:52 PM
Thanks Jurgen!  I will overhaul the stuff, and when Jim puts up the revised Scouting article we will proceed to publish!.  This should also make a good (serries of) article(s) for Jorge.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aldhick on November 04, 2013, 02:29:58 PM
So you enjoyed it, I bet. Please guys, can you be more specific on the tested rules and suggested changes, especially the command issue? Getting excited. Thanx
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 03:43:29 PM
So you enjoyed it, I bet. Please guys, can you be more specific on the tested rules and suggested changes, especially the command issue? Getting excited. Thanx

Yes, I will (sooooon my preciouss....... soon)  but I need to pick up Regular Life (TM) first after 3 weeks of hectic preparations! for the event!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Dave on November 04, 2013, 05:57:00 PM
Thanks again Lex, it was good to put some faces to forum goers.

Ed, I have one of your Balls of Confusion.

Aldhick, here's a break down I sent to my friends. This was most of what we played with I think.

Scouting - In a nut shell, you ante units which give you a scouting
bonus and both players roll a 2D6 + bonus. The winner places the anted
units, the loser places their entire army, and then the winner places
their army. Not a huge game changer but it definitely speeds up setup
as opposed to the I place, you place brigade thing.

Support before casualties - Normally you remove casualties and then
count up support. Instead we counted support and then removed
casualties. This definitely gave a boost to infantry, and really made
you want to have support.

Flyers charge 60cm - Instead of 100cm, but they still could move
100cm. It never came up in my games, my Eagles always got shafted.

One round to pursue cav/flyers - Normally infantry and monsters can't
pursue cav or flyers, and cav can't pursue flyers. If you hit them in
the flank though we gave them one round of pursuit. I don't think this
came up in my games though.

Terrain rules - A whole bunch of them:

Broken Ground - Terrain that doesn't count as open but doesn't confer
defended/LoS blockage.

Road - Units in column that start and end their move on a road may
ignore the command modifier for the next order. So, my General orders
them on a 10, and then again on a 10 for order 2, 3, etc. All other
modifiers (distance, within 20 of enemy, losses) apply.

Build Up Area - Aka a town. Everything can enter it. You can see 4cm
through it, and infantry that are charged will count as defended. Additionally,
anything can be pursued while in it.

In Terrain/Out of Terrain - We did it by the unit, not the stand. If
one stands was 1mm in the terrain it was "in it" and could claim
defended. However, the part of the unit outside the terrain could be
charged and would be counted as a charge in the open. In effect, both
sides get the best modifier. The charger gets +1 dice for charging in
the open, but the chargee counts as defended and can only be hit on
5+.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 07:55:55 PM
Quote
Road - Units in column that start and end their move on a road may
ignore the command modifier for the next order. So, my General orders
them on a 10, and then again on a 10 for order 2, 3, etc. All other
modifiers (distance, within 20 of enemy, losses) apply.

It is the command modifier on 2d order !! after that it applies normally
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Dave on November 04, 2013, 08:20:45 PM
Didn't catch that part this weekend. :P
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 04, 2013, 08:25:41 PM
Didn't catch that part this weekend. :P

Their where some nuances played during the games...  I will straighten it out later this weekend in a full rundown. In the mean time you overview is a good starting point for discussion!
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: jchaos79 on November 04, 2013, 09:05:43 PM
Sounds like a good time! :)

Thanks Jurgen!  I will overhaul the stuff, and when Jim puts up the revised Scouting article we will proceed to publish!.  This should also make a good (serries of) article(s) for Jorge.

Great, good news.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: empireaddict on November 04, 2013, 09:28:13 PM
Thanks again to Lex for organising a great event and to everyone for making it such a great atmosphere.  Here’s my personal take on the various things we playtested:

ROADS. 
I think a bonus should apply but I would suggest it is simplified.  A unit in column which starts on a road, moves only along a road, and ends in column on a road is +1 to order.

SUPPORT
I very strongly support the counting of support before removal of casualties.  This would be number 1 in my list of things to fix in WMF.

FLANKS
I have never liked ‘pinning’ with units going from frontal positions to envelope flanks, but I accept that is a minority position.  Therefore I would welcome clarification of what constitutes a ‘flanking’ position for an ordinary charge.

60CM CHARGE FOR FLYERS
I very strongly support this change.

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS
I support this change.

IN/OUT OF TERRAIN
Part of unit in terrain, so whole unit gets defensive benefits.  Attackers get charging benefits against those stands that are not wholly in the terrain.  I support this as it gives a third dimension to what has been a very two-dimensional terrain system.

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  One of the problems with WMF, I think, is that cavalry have been overly powerful.  Allowing them into previously denied terrain makes them stronger by letting them become, in effect, infantry based on a narrow edge.

ANYONE CAN PURSUE FOR ONE ROUND IF FLANKING
This was good and helped to rebalance infantry versus cavalry.  I would strongly support this change.

MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  This additional layer of complexity was explained as a way of speeding up the start of the game.  In that regard, it seemed to be a complex solution in search of a simple problem.  If there is a difficulty with slow starts, then use the scouting rules to speed the placing of armies and then simply adopt a higher tempo of play (aka “get on with it” or “do; don’t discuss”).
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Dave on November 04, 2013, 10:50:00 PM
ROADS. 
I think a bonus should apply but I would suggest it is simplified.  A unit in column which starts on a road, moves only along a road, and ends in column on a road is +1 to order.

Do you mean a +1 for their next order? If so, ya that's dead simple and represents roads well.

Quote
CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  One of the problems with WMF, I think, is that cavalry have been overly powerful.  Allowing them into previously denied terrain makes them stronger by letting them become, in effect, infantry based on a narrow edge.

If anything can be pursued in woods/buildings I'd still like to keep testing it. I'd think twice of sending expensive cav into terrain against defended infantry, especially when the infantry might get a second round against them.

Quote
MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  This additional layer of complexity was explained as a way of speeding up the start of the game.  In that regard, it seemed to be a complex solution in search of a simple problem.  If there is a difficulty with slow starts, then use the scouting rules to speed the placing of armies and then simply adopt a higher tempo of play (aka “get on with it” or “do; don’t discuss”).

I forgot about that one. Essentially Command 8 and above gave a unit/brigade three orders on a roll of 2 or 3, and two orders on a roll of 4 or 5. Command 7 and below gave them two orders on a 2 or 3.

I wasn't a fan of this one either. It puts too much weight on the result of one roll. If people are having that much trouble getting armies out of their deployment zone every game then make a house rule, the main rules don't need a change here.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aldhick on November 05, 2013, 07:32:18 AM

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS
I support this change.

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  One of the problems with WMF, I think, is that cavalry have been overly powerful.  Allowing them into previously denied terrain makes them stronger by letting them become, in effect, infantry based on a narrow edge.
In his first post Dave is mentioning just terrain like a willage or town, which is perfectly ok with me. If this should apply on forrests aswell, I'd be not so sure about it...

Quote
MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  This additional layer of complexity was explained as a way of speeding up the start of the game.  In that regard, it seemed to be a complex solution in search of a simple problem.  If there is a difficulty with slow starts, then use the scouting rules to speed the placing of armies and then simply adopt a higher tempo of play (aka “get on with it” or “do; don’t discuss”).
The main point on this issue that I've been experiencing is that it happens too often, that you have to leave half of your units on the spot where you deployed them, because you weren't able to issue enought orders. And it really sucks and slows down the game. So the solution should be to make a bigger chance to issue more ordes at the start, so more units can move, not to make one unit/brigade to be able to run acorss the table due to lucky roll. IMO some simple change like - start to count further orders penalty from third order on (not from the second) in the first turn - would suffice.    So the point should be "more orders", not "more moves on one order". 

I really dig all the other stuff.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: andys on November 05, 2013, 06:01:45 PM
Do you intend to update the 2009 Trial Armies compendium?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Ole on November 05, 2013, 07:23:26 PM
ROADS. 
I think a bonus should apply but I would suggest it is simplified.  A unit in column which starts on a road, moves only along a road, and ends in column on a road is +1 to order.

Sounds Fun, and it's a chance to see more roads on the field of glory.

SUPPORT
I very strongly support the counting of support before removal of casualties.  This would be number 1 in my list of things to fix in WMF.
As we play the core ruleset WMA we always played it this way and never had any problems.

FLANKS
I have never liked ‘pinning’ with units going from frontal positions to envelope flanks, but I accept that is a minority position.  Therefore I would welcome clarification of what constitutes a ‘flanking’ position for an ordinary charge.

I would like to hear more about it when Lex is ready.

60CM CHARGE FOR FLYERS
I very strongly support this change.
Flyers are in need of a Lot of clarification, since the rulebook is quite vage about it.
We used this as a houserule with no probelms for some time now.

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS
I support this change.
Right now it's 1cm.
WMA is 2cm.
Where is the Need of 4cm?

I would like to Test border 2cm inside 4cm.

IN/OUT OF TERRAIN
Part of unit in terrain, so whole unit gets defensive benefits.  Attackers get charging benefits against those stands that are not wholly in the terrain.  I support this as it gives a third dimension to what has been a very two-dimensional terrain system.
The rules as they are now have the benifit that you might stand in iregulare fotmation. With the new rule you might get supporting Stands.

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  One of the problems with WMF, I think, is that cavalry have been overly powerful.  Allowing them into previously denied terrain makes them stronger by letting them become, in effect, infantry based on a narrow edge.
please don't make monsters or cavalry any stronger.

ANYONE CAN PURSUE FOR ONE ROUND IF FLANKING
This was good and helped to rebalance infantry versus cavalry.  I would strongly support this change.
That's sounds like a good way to do it.

MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  This additional layer of complexity was explained as a way of speeding up the start of the game.  In that regard, it seemed to be a complex solution in search of a simple problem.  If there is a difficulty with slow starts, then use the scouting rules to speed the placing of armies and then simply adopt a higher tempo of play (aka “get on with it” or “do; don’t discuss”).

That would stay a houserule. Is not the hole piont of the entire order system to make a diferrence between good and better commanders? If you really have a problem with it you can play highelves don't you.

Just my 2cents

Ole
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: jchaos79 on November 05, 2013, 10:16:07 PM
I did not came to the warmaster internation playestest, so I do not have all the information and feeling to make a good judge, but I will put my first impression here (just my opinion):

- Roads: OK, I usually use it as houserule. Strongly agree

- Support: Not a really fan of changing it. But I could adapt my games to this way of playing.

-Flanks: Do not understand well the change. I suppose Corner to corner fight if the charge goes from the frontal position and all the enemy's frontal is fighting. Not really fan of changing it.

-60 cm charge flyers: OK for me

- Visibility of 4cm: did it make significative changes?  I could support this change.

- Terrain: strongly agree

- Cavalry and monster entering the woods: strongly disagree

- Anyone can purse for flank: strongly disagree

- Multiple moves in one dice roll: strongly disagree
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Heiko on November 06, 2013, 10:28:30 AM
Following the discussion, I have the impression, we discuss partially different things we have done in a different way last weekend. So, I wrote down, how I understood the "new tested rules".  I´ve added also some examples to make clear, how I understood it.

Minimum of attacks: Should be always be at least one (despite the fact, the unit has none because of some modifiers (terror / flanked / confusion...)

Rules about the area
-   Units, partially (at least one complete stand) inside of a “special area” can claim the defended status for all stands of the unit. On the other hand: A other unit, which attacks this "defended" unit gets all the bonus it has to get (Monster charge, charge ...)
-   Builded up area (villages and so on) – all types of units can enter it. You can see four centimeter inside (from outside), through (from inside), outside (from inside). Pursuing is for all types of units possible (eg. Infantry can pursue cavalry), also when the pursuing unit doesn´t stand in the flank of the pursued unit (see the “flanking rule”).  Infantry counts defended, attackers never get the attack-bonus. No other bonuses apply (pursuing the retreating unit and so on).
-   Forest -   . You can see four centimeter inside (from outside), through (from inside), outside (from inside).
-   Streets – When a unit starts with at least one complete stand on a street and gets a successful order: When the unit ends up the movement with the same conditions on the street, a 1 is subtracted from the following command. Other modifiers apply.

Flyers
-   They can move 100 Zentimeter, they can charge 60 Zentimeter
Flanking
-   If a unit is charged in the flank, the flanking unit can pursue the attacked unit for one round. So – cavalry can pursue flyers and so on.
-   We support the 45 Degree rule, we don´t support the rule of the book.

My vote about all of these things: - I would like to get them!!!!

and last but not least:

Chain of command
General: If used in the way we have done it, it changes too much. It is absolutely enjoyable, but it´s not the game we did before. If the rule is used, this should be changed:
-   It is impossible, to charge on the second or third move.
-   The rules should be changed massively. (e.g. three moves on a 2, two moves on a 3)


Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Alexander on November 06, 2013, 01:18:50 PM
As far as my limited experience is any worth, my thoughts during the playtest weekend:

- Roads: OK

- Support: A must change. It enhances the otherwise weak infantry vs cavalry. Also the feeling is much better when doing this.

-Flanks: Either way is ok for me.

-60 cm charge flyers: good rule

- Visibility of 4cm: I don't mind either way

- Terrain: agree

- Cavalry and monster entering the woods: disagree

- Anyone can pursue for flank: agree, You will have to think twice attacking infantry with cavalry or charging cavalry with flying units without their flanks coverd.


- Multiple moves in one dice roll:  Not really a fan of it. Alternative would be one free move (without command check) in the first movementphase or maybe  a +1 modifier to command check in the first turn and first movement (max command of 10). You could say that the commander gave a speach and the  infantry was pumped to get to grips with the enemy.

edit: maybe in the first turn and first order for that brigade/unit you can reroll 1 command die. eg. high elf rolls 11 (6+5). High elf can rerol the 6 for only that first order. Then you keep the "the better the general the better the order possibility" but the lower commanders (skaven, orcs etc) still have a chance moving the units out of the deploymentzone with a lucky reroll. If both dice are high it will still need a lucky reroll to move the unit but it is at least a chance.

- Scouting rule: good
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: wmchaos2000 on November 09, 2013, 05:27:10 AM
Roads:
we have tried this once and it worked out well, but mostly the terrain feature "road" isn`t available, so no big impact (=+1)

Support:
a bit trickier, in one way one could argue "how can a already dead stand support another?" and on the other hand "to represent the bulg of the unit engaged in combat". But i will go with the first. That is the realistic and logical answer. After all, a unit seeing it´s foes lines falling will get extra energy. So, please do not change this due to "game-mechanic" issues. That wouldn´t be in-the-name-of-the-game. (=-1)
But in-game we need another way to "help" inf, see #below#

Flank:
need a clarification here...?

Flyers:
they can fly 100cm, no need to change that, it is relative to inf and cav movement, but why not limit their range of LoS? see #below#

Visibility:
in woods, it is very hard to see more then 10-12m, ( a member of swedish wm community actually did an irl test and none of his testies could see the blazing orangeè(?) helmet/jacket 9m into the undergrowth...) so don´t mess with this.  One inf stands width is perfect. (=-1)
a side-reflection, what is LoS? What the unit actually and clearly sees? Or what the commanders of the army "know" is there? hopefully charging units won´t rely on commanders "sight" more then on there own actual seeing-the-enemy in clear view when deciding to risk their lives charging in or not.

Terrain:
if a charged inf unit have parts outside where it can actually find defence, it will be in the open, no "rule-mechanic" will convince me here. may have something #below# (=-1)

Cavalry+Monster in woods:
no (=-1)

Pursue on flanks:
a rule-text-idea on this one.
"if a unit, any unit, finds itselfs in base-to-base contact after the retreating enemy unit/stands have moved, that stand can always participate in the next combat round, unless the unit actually is allowed to pursue or chooses to hold or fall back as normal. If it chooses to fall back, and isn´t allowed to pursue, it can´t move over the original "imagined" battle-line (WMA). (+1, not play-tested)

Multiple moves:
NO!!
that is a abomination!
if the problem is: "not many/all units/brigades get to move out of the deployment zone" adress that.
an idea i have been thinking about, but not tested, is, let the first order a unit/brigade gets where there is no command penalties what-so-ever get +1 on the roll. which then also would/could apply to orders in later turns where there aswell is no pre-penalties at all. =first order (=+1)

Scouting:
do not really see the need of this. (=-1)

#below#
Support: add a battle standard upgrade for one character in all armies, and if that character is within 20cm of the unit add +1CR/supporting stand.
Flyers: use combat field conditions. weather and sunlight giving strict conditions on LoS during the following turn. we have used this for years and it has always limited charge distance for flyers in turn 1-2 and sometimes limited LoS for artillery in turn 1-2.
Terrain: there is plenty of terrain rules still to be developed, light/heavy woods, rough terrain, march vs river, swamp vs lake and so on.

May have missed some things here, but feel free to comment. :)

My 50 öre.

Best regards /ola
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Toon on November 09, 2013, 09:01:42 AM
I am so, so sad I could not attend  :'( Could you guys maybe post some pictures?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on November 09, 2013, 10:02:44 AM
already some out of various Warmaster FB groups, but I will see what I can do here...

how did exams go?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aquahog on November 09, 2013, 11:28:28 AM
Also, without having tried them, here are my comments.


ROADS. 

I see no problem with this.

SUPPORT

This will make infantry in a defended position with support nigh unbreakable. Not a bad thing I guess.


FLANKS

?

60CM CHARGE FOR FLYERS

As Ola mentioned, we have solved this differently, but either way works for me.

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS

No thanks. See Ola's comment on irl test.

Quote
IN/OUT OF TERRAIN
Part of unit in terrain, so whole unit gets defensive benefits.  Attackers get charging benefits against those stands that are not wholly in the terrain.  I support this as it gives a third dimension to what has been a very two-dimensional terrain system.

Actually, this sounds like the way we play it already?

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS

Gods no! Nothing good can come from it. Possibly monsters from a fluff perspective.

ANYONE CAN PURSUE FOR ONE ROUND IF FLANKING

Sounds good to me.

MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE

I agree with the "complicated solution to a simple problem mindset". I prefer either Ola's idea or simply an overall +1 to all command rolls turn 1. If flyers can't charge obviously...
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Stormwind on November 09, 2013, 04:01:41 PM
In Blitzkrieg Commander, the "Snake Eyes" double-one bonus can really change a battle or allow some stunning flank maneavours.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: jchaos79 on November 09, 2013, 08:23:58 PM
Yep, cold war commander has this rule also.

I like the idea of double 1 (snake eyes) allow an extra order. It is not the same game, because in CoC/BKC shooting is one order. But this is a touch of colour because is not very probable obtain double 1 and could work in fantasy anyway.

The idea I did not like is moving toward Hail Caesar system of orders... if you get 2 then X order, if you get 3 then X-1 orders... and so on.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on November 13, 2013, 06:22:42 AM
Hi,

Commands Orders:

I like the idea of adding a bonus to the first moves. What I would recommend, that this bonus is only possible in Turn 1 of the combat to reflect that the conmanders have received a plan in front of the battle. In turn 2 the commands will work in the usual way. Benefit: Troops will get more soon in touch.

Regards,

Jürgen

Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: wmchaos2000 on November 13, 2013, 12:21:10 PM
+1

Works well with the idea that all units knows the original battle-plan, but after the first order and the following movement is done, the units, in general, don´t really see what the next step should be and therefore normal command penalties apply on all orders after the first.

Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aldhick on November 13, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
+1

Works well with the idea that all units knows the original battle-plan, but after the first order and the following movement is done, the units, in general, don´t really see what the next step should be and therefore normal command penalties apply on all orders after the first.
This reminds me of one good old proverb saying that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" :-)
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: BlackEd on November 13, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
I created a post over in the Trial Armies Feedback forum.  http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=564.30 (http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=564.30)

I was frustrated by the Samurai army.  2 losses, and (I think) 2 draws.  Maybe 3 losses and 1 draw.

I like the roads, and the scouting rules.

I'm not sure about the pursue-if-on-the-flank bit. 

I would like to see the 45 degree rule (for determining flank charges) made part of the offcial rules.  It is easier and simpler to play.

I like the "everyone gets their bonuses" -- it saves time trying to figure out results by stand.

I want to try playing with hedges some more.  I like the concept of more terrain.

Support before casulaties -- please make this part of the official rules. 
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on January 16, 2014, 08:13:47 PM
Dotcom and I had a battle yesterday. We tried the rules of support, 45 degrees flank, everyone gets its bonus and the command bonus at the first order in round 1.

We played Empire vs skaven 2000p and liked all changes.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on January 28, 2014, 09:48:41 AM
Hi,

Did some more rule testing:
Played skaven versus demon tournament 2000p

Rules used:
Command: First command of each commander within first turn gives a bonus +1. That means, first order for a general with command 9 is working on a 10. Second order on the same unit will work as usual on 8. The same thing for the wizards and heroes. Works well and helps to get armies sooner in combats.

45 degree rule:
We play this rule since years and won't get back to the origin rule.

 Flyers: can attack only on 60 cm - this makes fully sense and works best during all games we did. over the past years.

Support:
Counted support before taking off dead bases - good change will keep playing. You have now with infantery a chance to play.

Bonus:
We used the rule of bonus for units which are only partial in terrain. Like the idea that charging gets it bonus and defender gets it bonus. Makes combat rules smooth. Will keep playing.

Regards,

Jurisch
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aldhick on January 28, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
Makes perfect sens to me :-) I just wonder what's the issue with the 45° line of sight. I have never focused on this, but there obviously are some problems, as it's been mentioned many times before. So I'd like to get educated :-)
 Just straight from the point of view of game mechanics the original rule seems much simplier. There's no way you can messure 45° on wm bases unless you have some angle tool.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on January 28, 2014, 10:57:36 AM
There's no way you can messure 45° on wm bases unless you have some angle tool.
For infantry that is the center of the back-edge to a front corner....
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: empireaddict on January 29, 2014, 06:51:42 AM
Simple way to create an 'angle tool':  Take a standard WM plastic base and, with a knife, score a line from one corner to the middle of the opposite side.  Snap off the triangle you have created and then you have a piece of plastic which can be placed alongside a front stand to check the 45 degrees.  Store with your dice.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aldhick on January 29, 2014, 01:19:09 PM
Alright, I got now that it's easy to mesure 45°, but I still don't know what is the upper hand of 45° LoS compared to 180°. Is it a tactics issue, or rule problem? I have been playing 180° so far and no significant problem came up. But I played only few games so I'd like to know more about it.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Lex on January 29, 2014, 02:24:40 PM
it has to do with perception and placement. The 45 rules can mess up positioning on frontal or flank attacks. IICR the Warhammer rules use a 45 degree mechanism and this often confuses/confused people
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Dave on January 29, 2014, 04:49:37 PM
OK, I'm confused now. I thought we were moving to a 45° rule for flank charges?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on January 30, 2014, 03:37:49 PM
@ Dave - I am confused, too now.
We always play 45 - rules since years and had never an issue. Don't see a reason not to change it.
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Aldhick on February 03, 2014, 01:13:17 PM
ok, looks like I got the idea wrong.. so  you use 45° angle to distinguish flank/front charge, but the units still have 180° line of sight right?
Title: Re: Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend
Post by: Jurisch on February 04, 2014, 04:51:31 AM
Yes, the 45 degrees rule is just a change to the flank rule.