The Specialist Arms Forum

Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: heavygear on December 24, 2014, 06:10:22 PM

Title: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on December 24, 2014, 06:10:22 PM
For XMAS! Here is the forthcoming mini that can serve as cairn proxy

This is a preview from Red Arsenal on shapeways and actually unreleased
additional infos can be found on BFG FR forum

(http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/11/02/26/14/cuiras12.png)
(http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/11/02/26/14/cuiras13.png)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: horizon on December 24, 2014, 07:56:06 PM
Impressive!
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 25, 2014, 08:42:10 AM
Wow, a lot more interesting than the original! Will there be other Necron ships as well?

Also, do you have a like to the thread on the French forum? Which reminds me, I really need to re-learn my French!
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Stormwind on December 25, 2014, 04:45:35 PM
Looks better than the original I'd say ha ha.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Pix on December 27, 2014, 08:02:31 AM
Also, do you have a like to the thread on the French forum? Which reminds me, I really need to re-learn my French!

I was thinking you should start to post some stuff on BFG FR.
Why not start a "BFG - ideas from internet" thread like the one on Resin Addict ?
Mainly pictures ! And even if you write in english, we will be very happy to practice our english.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 27, 2014, 08:41:55 AM
Hmm, that might not even be such a bad idea, or even post in broken French. I can always google translate stuff. :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on December 27, 2014, 09:18:24 AM
Wow, a lot more interesting than the original! Will there be other Necron ships as well?
Yes 2 are already available
Link to the shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/redarsenal

pics
Voidrunner
(http://images2.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2579956_7130064_1414062663.jpg)

Intruder
(http://images2.sw-cdn.net/model/picture/625x465_2672933_7130073_1414062703.jpg)


Also, do you have a like to the thread on the French forum? Which reminds me, I really need to re-learn my French!

The french thread is here:
http://battlefleet.forum-actif.net/t1545p90-vente-red-arsenal
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 27, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
Hmm, he needs to print them elsewhere than Shapeways, try to find a more high-end service and then cast them. I mean, the models look so cool, but the Shapeways prints just make them look grainy, which is such a shame. :(

Maybe have a chat with the fellows over at Resin Addict, or set up his own boutique styled shop?
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Pix on December 27, 2014, 10:40:21 AM
Hmm, that might not even be such a bad idea, or even post in broken French. I can always google translate stuff. :)

Broken french will be perfect if you think about our broken english :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 27, 2014, 01:04:57 PM
Malika123 reporting for duty! Ha, I joined the forum. As for the inspiration thread, I have to ponder a bit about it, since that thread was mostly filled with stuff that was either directly taken from the French forum or already posted there. ;)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on December 27, 2014, 01:46:29 PM
Hmm, he needs to print them elsewhere than Shapeways, try to find a more high-end service and then cast them. I mean, the models look so cool, but the Shapeways prints just make them look grainy, which is such a shame. :(

Maybe have a chat with the fellows over at Resin Addict, or set up his own boutique styled shop?

Depends of what resolution shapeways you use, if you use WSF (white strong flexible) it will be be really bad.
Fortunately he use FUD (frosted ultra detail you may wash with soapy water before painting to remove any remaining casting "dust").
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 27, 2014, 01:51:29 PM
I've worked a bit with FUD and whilst it's decent, it's still inferior to the quality of plastic/resin that is currently on the market. So whilst it isn't that bad, it's still an inferior product. Which makes it difficult to compete on the market since there is so much stuff out there. So what you want is a high quality product for an affordable price, and sadly enough Shapeways isn't yet able to compete on either of those against a decently cast plastic/resin/metal model.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Pix on December 27, 2014, 09:20:14 PM
It's good than you are now on BFG FR too !!

About this resin vs 3Dprint discussion, i really don't know what to think. I am feeling than the 3Dprint (and i am mainly thinking about the FUD) is really badly consider by the community. And still i don't see why. I am feeling both material and process are having they one advantage and mistake.
Resin is cheap when you start to produce "en masse", and it's true the surface is pretty nice to paint.
But to make it affordable you need to make a big production. Sometime you have bubble or some mold issue also.
In term of 3D print, FUD is some kind of good balance between price and quality in comparaison with all the other material Shapeways is offering. All the other material is not fiting the type of precision we are looking for.
It's printed on demand, meaning no stock for the producer and so no logistic to take care.

I agree some time you see some line or other artefact the process is creating, but really with few thin layer of paint you don't see them so much.
What i also enjoy with the 3D printing there is no restriction about what kind of shape you can print. In resin you need to check than you piece can be take out from the mold.

I am feeling people in general are having bad opinion with this kind of new process. There is for sure stuff to evolve with this new process, but i don't see so much issue with it.

And 3D printer will evolve soon :)

I am more unhappy with all the Shapeways politics about how far you can push there machine....
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Yodhrin on December 28, 2014, 01:33:23 AM
Slightly OT, but since we're discussing Shapeways/FUD - has anyone tried prepping a FUD model by giving it the soapy lukewarm water bath & gentle scrub treatment as you usually would with a new model, then giving the model an extremely thinned down wash of liquid green stuff/milliput? I would think that one or two(to make sure application is even) of those would eliminate any remaining visible "stepping" once the undercoat was applied, no?
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Blindhorizon on December 28, 2014, 03:31:32 AM
Personnally I use FUD for multiple prints I have done, the prints are not as bad as some have said. Although there may be need for some fine grit sanding for the most part the parts look rather nice. FUD is still viable and should be widely accepted, I see some companies using far worse printing services for their miniatures that they produce commercially. I cast and get very good results using FUD. If your going to invest in a wax you better hope you sell a lot as it is drastically more expensive. What I would do is print FUD create a mold to make miniatures off of so you can clean those miniatures up and then Create a production mold from the fixed miniatures.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 28, 2014, 09:46:10 AM
Slightly OT, but since we're discussing Shapeways/FUD - has anyone tried prepping a FUD model by giving it the soapy lukewarm water bath & gentle scrub treatment as you usually would with a new model, then giving the model an extremely thinned down wash of liquid green stuff/milliput? I would think that one or two(to make sure application is even) of those would eliminate any remaining visible "stepping" once the undercoat was applied, no?

Very curious about this! Production costs, as Pix rightfully pointed out, is indeed a tricky thing. High-end prints are still rather expensive, so you need something for that, either good sales, crowdfunding, or a friendly discount. I know that Wasteland Studio (http://wastelandgamestudio.com/) also has their stuff printing in FUD and then clean up the models before casting, that might be an option...

As for the evolution of 3D printing, I've been experimenting and dealing with various parties now: from Shapeways to universities in the Netherlands, UK and US, independent printing services and so on. I've visited seminars on the whole 'makers movement' (which is what we kinda are here), Third Industrial Revolution and so on. The impression I'm getting is that whilst 3D printing will indeed improve and become more affordable, there will still be two main issues: (1) high end, so very detailed and smooth prints, will still be a limited service, sort of like very specialized prints on paper for lets say posters. (2) forget about mass production through printing, at least for the stuff we are doing. So a print on demand might be something, akin to Shapeways, but as soon as you want to level it up a little bit, like lets say a boutique setup (both Miniatures of the North (http://miniaturesofthenorth.com/) and Battlegroup Helios (http://www.battlegrouphelios.com/) seem to work this way) in which you just produce/sell a limited stock, casting is still the only way to go.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Pix on December 28, 2014, 09:56:04 AM
I agree than the discussion is slighty OT, but still pretty happy to see than there is other people sharing the same kind of opinion about FUD and 3D printing.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 28, 2014, 10:37:53 AM
I'm interested in the developments regarding 3D printing. And whilst I think FUD isn't up to miniature standard, it is sort of a next best thing if you're limited on resources. Companies like GW, MaxMini, Dream Forge, Anvil Industry, etc all use more high end printing services (or have their own machines), but they deal with 28mm scaled stuff, which is a way larger market, meaning they can sell it. With ships and other differently scaled models we're very much trapped in a niche. The BFG community is pretty small as it is, and it's unlikely to really grow that much.

By the way, has any of you tried using Shapeways' wax prints?

But I'm not sure yet how far off topic we are going here, since it is still very much related to how we can do this lovely Necron ship the justice it deserves! :D
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Blindhorizon on December 28, 2014, 12:31:38 PM
I really wanted to try shape ways wax print but when I finally got a model I wanted to try with it they doubled the price and my print would have cost $250. Already having invested $225 in concept art and 3d artist I'd need to still mold the piece... Probably rounding out total investment to $500. It's really hard to spend that much on a mini that's a garage kit and I'll probably sell maybe 15 of them for $20 each, still expensing resin and mold release.. I won't get my put in back. I'm considering FUD to save on cost and fixing the model once I have it in hand.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Pix on December 28, 2014, 03:07:02 PM
Yep, i really think the real main issue is we are on a very small market, a small spaceship niche....
Niche maybe, but still very active !
I am thinking if we were 15 years in the past, without all the 3D printer, without the internet and the forum, games like BFG would never have survive without GW behind.

I am feeling than we are not the last people palying this game, and enjoying this kind of scale.
If you look to all the fluff produce by Forge World.... I am sure they are still playing a lot about !
Like the last HH (tome 4 - Conquest), it's mainly fight between spaceship, boarding assault (ok Zone Mortalis stuff...) and other BFG stuff. The note on the Poison Ships (p 55) it's almost a scenario for BFG...
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Blindhorizon on December 29, 2014, 04:46:43 AM
I'll have to take a look at that book! I agree with everything you said too.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 29, 2014, 08:41:56 AM
The Conquest book was mainly a tribute to BFG for its inclusion of Port Maw! I'd love to see somebody come up with a scenario for the Poison ships (and maybe also design a model...).

Ok, now we're getting off topic here!  :P
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Pix on December 29, 2014, 09:06:13 AM
I agree than we are off topic now.... :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on December 30, 2014, 08:33:37 AM
Ha, speaking of going off topic, we've been doing exactly the same over at the Troll Forged forums (http://trollsforge.proboards.com/thread/2323/back-cutting-board). Reason I'm sharing this is because it's kinda the same discussion we're having here regarding printing and production, so I thought it might be an interesting read for you guys. :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: horizon on December 30, 2014, 08:04:05 PM
Heya,

no problems from this moderator with going off topic. As long as it scratches something BFG related it is fine. And even beyond that I am lenient. In real life conversations tend to go off topic as well and sometimes involve into good things.

 8)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: fracas on January 03, 2015, 11:03:15 PM
These necrons are most impressive
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on February 13, 2015, 04:43:51 PM
Painted minis

mines
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/deaths10.jpg)

Necrons escorts proxies
Voidrunner
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/voidru10.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/voidru11.jpg)

Intruder
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/intrud10.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/intrud11.jpg)

and a 2 euros coin for size
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/void_i10.jpg)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/void_i11.jpg)

(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/void_m10.jpg)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Stormwind on February 13, 2015, 06:41:57 PM
Wow, those look great!
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: horizon on February 13, 2015, 09:51:42 PM
That are good sale tactics. ;)
Well done.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: fracas on February 13, 2015, 10:21:37 PM
Wow
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on February 14, 2015, 08:53:55 PM
ANd those are just FUD by Shapeways? How much cleaning up was needed?
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on February 15, 2015, 02:03:35 PM
ANd those are just FUD by Shapeways? How much cleaning up was needed?

I will ask, but I do think he used hot soappy water and a toothbrush
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Lyksus on February 15, 2015, 04:39:49 PM
They really look nice! :D
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on February 15, 2015, 08:16:02 PM
Hi there ! :D
I just saw this topic. I work on these necrons proxy. Thanks to heavygear for talking about them !
I came here to help answer any question you could have and would love to know your opinion on them too !

The photos are indeed FUD models. I used a toothbrush and pure alcohol to quickly clean the models. I am not sure if it can be bought easily (I get this kind of product from my work) but I guess soap and hot water also work.

About the quality/pricing discussion, I agree that Shapeways products are too expensive and the FUD quality a bit lower than a good resin cast (though still pretty good), but I can't really afford better. I make these ships on my free time and Shapeways offer me an easy way to make them available to everyone.
My goal is to create close proxy for xenos fleets : there is a lot of imperium proxys available on the internet, but not many for the other armies, so I started with the necrons who have simpler geometrical shapes and could need some love. :)

About the battleship showed earlier by heavy, the model is nearly finished, but I can't afford a test order at the moment (I mainly need to check if it will be resistant enough despite its hollow hull). So no battleship until I can run my tests, sorry. :s
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Markconz on February 26, 2015, 04:42:33 AM
Looks very good!

Just to add to comments on Shapeways, I did an Epic Necron army that uses many Shapeways pieces. I agree that they are not quite as nice as resin or pewter, but I was pretty happy with them. Pics here:
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/death-bots.html
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on February 26, 2015, 04:27:07 PM
latest news for a cairn proxy enjoy

(http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/11/02/26/14/cuiras13.png)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/cuiras10.png)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/cuiras12.png)
(http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/11/02/26/14/cuiras11.png)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Lyksus on February 26, 2015, 07:22:05 PM
holy crap... that thing is awesome! :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: horizon on February 26, 2015, 08:05:03 PM
Isn't there an option you start working together with Mangozac to get these things in Resin?
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on February 26, 2015, 09:33:03 PM
That's not even such a far-fetched option...
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Markconz on February 27, 2015, 07:15:16 AM
Exactly, get these babies in resin...
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on February 27, 2015, 02:23:47 PM
Isn't there an option you start working together with Mangozac to get these things in Resin?

I will ask Tink about casting them in resin with another of our sculptors help.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on February 27, 2015, 03:55:51 PM
Hmm, I'm not fully sure about those giant cannons on the bottom of the ship, they kinda diminish the sense of scale, making it more feel like a 40k sized model rather than BFG. But yeah, since it's still WIP I can imagine this going in all sorts of directions. :)
Title: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: andydorman on February 27, 2015, 10:09:30 PM
Yeah, Malika might have a point there. It does slightly break the scale - maybe it's because they're barrelled? Looks really good though!

[edit] ok, they're not really barrelled!! They would be *very* long at this scale though!
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on March 01, 2015, 01:10:30 PM
Didn't thought of this "size-breaking" effect on the cannons. I will try to arrange this, thank you for your feedbacks ! :)

About the resin option, I actualy don't have the time or money to organize this. :/
Casting resin models would require a better master than Shapeways models, otherwise it will probably keep its flaws. I don't even have enough money to test all my Shapeways models so I can't print a high quality one.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: mlkr on March 01, 2015, 03:52:56 PM
Team up with someone with the time and equipment and do a minimal kickstarter? Not sure how small stuff you can make them? Check on these forums at what level it would succeed and try?
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Dono1979 on March 01, 2015, 09:07:20 PM
While GW may be dead in regards to doing their own stuff with BFG, I think they are still pretty protective about the IP and running a kickstarter with aesthetics so close to the Necron stuff may be tempting fate a little too much?

I'm sure there could be other ways for them to be brought into a Resin life. There are a number of smaller companies starting up which have the resources to do limited lines, plus there could be a few other people who may be interested in helping fund such a launch for something in return. Whether or not Mangozac is in a position to actively help he may at least be able to give guidance and advice on the costs associated (like a good place to get a master print) which would then allow you to establish a proposal or something.


As for the model itself, I really like it, but do agree those barrels are huge for scale purposes
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: mangozac on March 01, 2015, 10:10:24 PM
Hey guys, this is mainly a reply to Tink, but I think it's valid for anybody else out there who is doing similar stuff ;)

Firstly, I love your work Tink! You've taken the GW designs (of which I was never a fan) and make them supremely cool! Awesome style update and great detailing! I agree with Malika on the cannons - they do break the scale. The very long barrels are part of the problem.

With regards to resin casting, unfortunately Dono is correct: these are still copying a lot of unique parts of GW's Necron style so I think to sell them would be a bit risky. If they were a little more unique I would talk with you about organising some high quality prints and resin production.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on March 02, 2015, 07:18:56 PM
Thanks for your replies ! I will be working on these cannons. :)

Actualy, I already know a good place to get these masters : I work in a 3D printing compagny and we have the machine needed for high quality models... but my boss won't let me print these for free (materials are awfully expensive :/). It's a money & time issue. And, of course, there is GW... ^^
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on March 02, 2015, 10:33:48 PM
Follow Mangozac's advice! :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on May 24, 2016, 05:28:51 PM
The Scythe proxy concepts I gathered from Tink

(http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/02/26/14/0110.png)

(http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/02/26/14/0210.png)

(http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/02/26/14/0310.png)

Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: heavygear on May 26, 2016, 09:11:20 AM
Cairn proxy mastered by a 3D printer but not Shapeways.
I don't know if Red Arsenal will continue with Shapeways, he find it too expensive for the result. Here is a pic of a new master by another manufacturer. Red Arsenal is trying to simplify a bit the details on some places to get an easier (and less costly) printing.

Up
(http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/12/98/40/52/20160410.jpg)
Bottom
(http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/12/98/40/52/20160411.jpg)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on May 27, 2016, 06:57:51 AM
Check your pm
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on May 04, 2018, 08:29:35 PM
Hello and sorry for the topic necromancy but I figured it seems logical to continue the discussion here rather than creating a new one, as I didn't found any recent topic on the subject. ^^'

I was working on these ships and stopped the project years ago due to drowning in work and other irl problems. I apologize to those who were waiting for these models.

I came back to it after someone recently ask about the battleship on Shapeways and decided to finish the fleet. Progress have been nice so far : I managed to solve the quality issue with Shapeways and made some new ships. Test prints for all of them have already been ordered and received. They are currently sitting on my desk waiting for fresh paint. I will make them available on SW one after the other as soon are they are ready for battle.

New models will include :
2 variants of the battleship previously shown (one is a bit bigger than the other and make a nice admiral ship... but they will be costly :s)
1 cruiser
1 light cruiser
2 variant of defence platform (light weapons and heavy weapons)
1 civilian transport ship

And I have designed a new pack of mines. The current one isn't adapted to SW recent pricing method...

So everything should be available at last. Sorry for the long wait !
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on May 17, 2018, 06:11:59 PM
The battleships are ready, and the new pack of mines too !

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/redarsenal


CAUTION : battleship models available on the website aren't those I tested. I made small corrections in order to solve some problems I had with these prototypes :
- the crescents were very slightly sloped and it created ugly print marks. I removed the slope, which should solve the issue without noticeably change the shape of the figurine.
- base hole under the Mausoleum wasn't solid enough. I reinforced it.
- the kit design for the Altar had a flaw which let 2 little holes visible under the stern. Corrected too.

In theory, the figurines should be better than ever know but I'm still keeping an eye on them. I would gladly appreciate any feedback ! :)

Next will be the cruisers. Models are fine for these ones so there won't be any modifications.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on May 27, 2018, 02:36:41 PM
Cruisers and light cruisers are now available ! :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Lotus on May 29, 2018, 10:38:38 PM
Great work!

I have no time to build a necron fleet right now (work, children etc.).

But i have to say - these models are just awesome.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on May 30, 2018, 09:47:30 PM
Thank you ! I just ordered what my fleet was lacking + some last test prints. I will finally have my full necron fleet after all these years. xP

Defense platforms and cargo will be availablle next as soon as paint will be done. :)
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Malika on June 03, 2018, 03:41:32 PM
Cargo and defence platforms for the Necrons? :O
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on June 05, 2018, 03:31:47 PM
Yep. More for the fun than anything else !
I guess they can be used for custom scenarios or just for collection. :)

I should receive the last test for cargos tomorrow. I will paint and make them available afterwards.
Title: Re: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Tink on June 07, 2018, 07:43:32 PM
Cargo and platforms are available ! I'm done with this fleet. :)

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/redarsenal
Title: New proxy for Necrons
Post by: Thinking Stone on June 14, 2018, 08:29:10 AM
Oo! I remember seeing some of the early posts on this thread, and the final result is pretty excellent, @Tink! And very stylishly painted on the preview!

It's interesting to see how 3D printing quality has changed over the last few years.