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Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: afterimagedan on February 25, 2013, 04:50:47 AM

Title: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: afterimagedan on February 25, 2013, 04:50:47 AM
Can you guys look over this document and see if I have missed anything? Also, the defenses from the xenos races; should we include those in here instead of their lists?

++Planetary Defences++ (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1596994/BFGR%202/BFGR%20Planetary%20Defences.pdf)
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on February 25, 2013, 12:19:52 PM
Should the Ramiles be included here also?

I would probably put all of the races in one document but it can work either way.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: afterimagedan on February 25, 2013, 03:20:07 PM
I do think the Ramilies should be in this list. Also, I think it is better to include the defenses from all races in this document because then you don't have to have documents with all those extra pages for the majority of the games you play where you don't need transports or defenses, even if the other documents refer to these defenses.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: horizon on February 25, 2013, 07:30:33 PM
I think space stations need a big overhaul. And once I had written an unpublished article on it.
Now it is lost. :(
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: afterimagedan on February 25, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
I think space stations need a big overhaul. And once I had written an unpublished article on it.
Now it is lost. :(

Well you should find that sucker! I am interested to hear what you have to say about it.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Plaxor on February 26, 2013, 07:57:09 AM
Horizon is right, I came across this during my work. Space stations in general are weak against WB due to their defence status. IMO most should have AV 6+. Also defences typically are underrepresented in games, so I thought that cheaper defences, or more points for them is more appealing.

An aside from this, the scenarios system is terribly broken. I was working on a solution towards the end of my work, based on using solid points values for each player for each game level.

From a basic standpoint, I planned for scenarios to work thusly (and possibly all regular games, comparable to WH40k [at least in 5th]).

1. Both players agree on a number of points to spend on their Battle level fleet.
2. Each player designs the following fleets:
        i. A Battle Fleet up to the number of points agreed by both players. This fleet must include a Fleet Commander (I don't remember exactly how I planned for characters to work in this)
       ii. A Raider Fleet comprising of 1/2 the points limit for their battle fleet.
      iii. A Planetary Defense List equaling 1/4 the battle fleet points
      iv. A Transport fleet equalling 1/4 the battle fleet points.

Note: Players will not necessarily use all fleet lists for their game. They must be able to provide the vessels for either core fleet along with their planetary defence and transport fleets simultaneously.

3. The players choose a mission (there were a number of possibilities of how to do this, and I'll list the two I liked best at the time)

Note: Missions were divided into three categories--Raids, Hybrid, and Battles. Raids are where both players use their smaller fleet list, Hybrids were where one used battle and the other raid, and battles of course had both players use their largest fleet.

Option A: Players roll dice to determine which mission is played.

1. They begin by rolling a D3 (or possibly 2D6 with increased likelyhood for raids, then battles).
2. They after determining the type, another dice is rolled for specific missions. (Players can possibly use a 'Re-roll' to have the specific mission type re-rolled)
3. Players then continue to mission specifics.

Option B: Players use cards and attack rating to determine scenario.

1. The players first begin with a stack of cards each representing one of the 12(?) standard scenarios.
2. Each player removes 1 card for each point of attack rating of their fleet. I.e a fleet with attack rating 2 could remove 2 cards. Players may choose not to remove any cards.
3. The cards are shuffled then one player draws a card randomly from those that remain.



Scenario set up:

1. Set up terrain as normal.
2. Players determine attacker and defender using an AR roll off.
3. Determine table edges.
4. Set up as mission dictates. note: players may be required to use their planetary defence force/transport fleet.

Victory:

This was a bit complex, but I imagined some sort of Victory Point system scaled according to the number of points of core fleet on the field. Probably 1 for every 250 points. Conceptually a convoy mission with 2 500 point fleets would require the defender to get 4 transports off the table for a Major Victory, 3 for a Minor victory 2 for a draw etc. Of course this was a bit guesswork.




Anyways food for thought. Scenarios are a big deal that were rarely used. If I do anymore work for BFG:R it would probably be a set of standard scenarios since they could be used without alternate rules and wouldn't take long to make.

Note: Transports should have points values, but I understand this may seem unsavory.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Koshi on February 27, 2013, 09:40:23 AM
There are some issues about PD alright. I've played them not often altough we don't play planetary assault often. So I don't have much to say about them. Ok, they need a buff because at plays when I fielded them they never seem good except the defence monitor. It isn't that bad and I like the Idea about 2 Hits.

For Convoys I like to see cheaper and better escort carriers. They are overpriced and bad now. Never used them. Q-Ships are fine IMO, maybe a little bit cheaper - you are losing a transport after all. Armed Freighters are crap. I go so far to see them a free update to the normal transport. You're dealing transport capacity for weapons. You may include the fast clipper from Comp 2010.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: afterimagedan on April 09, 2013, 10:44:35 PM
I am starting to think about a couple things:

1. It seems apparent that we should address the point values of planetary defenses.
2. Ships that are also considered transports (droppods, some old BFG:R tyranids) should have a price to them. Basically, instead of scenarios that allow you to take a certain amount of transports per 500pts, I think instead that it should provide a point amount and mandate these "transport" quality vessels pay for their upgrades. For example, old BFG:R has their escort drones as transports. They should have to pay for this in games where scenarios utilize this. If they have extra transport points, they can spend them on transports. This would only take putting point values on transports and changing the wording in the scenarios to offer points for attackers to buy transports instead of having a set amount of transport vessels per point. This would also fix the whacky heavy transport issue.
--I say this because I played a game recently where Dark Eldar were defending a recently taken planet from a Space Marine fleet. Having each capital ship in the SM fleet made it almost impossible for the Dark Eldar to win. The SM fleet need to be paying for their drop pod quality in those games.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 10, 2013, 12:39:10 AM
I dont know if giving them an additional price is nesscarry so much but having ships with a built in transport capacity or mechanic that allows them to perform as a transport count againstthe total transport capacity for thhe fleet seem reasonable.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Bessemer on April 10, 2013, 01:57:41 AM
The above link doesn't work! Go to Dan's site, that works.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: afterimagedan on April 10, 2013, 04:36:10 AM
I fixed the link. The problem is with the word "Defenses" because American English spells it "Defenses" and British English spells it "Defences."  I have changed it over to the British English version because that is how the document has it. Even as I type it now, defences has a red line under it (because I am in the U.S.).

Andrew, given that Imperial transports are pretty much a 15pt ship and that heavy transports are a WAY better option, I think we should either put point costs on them or make sure that each fleet's transports even out to about 15pts, which I don't think we can do, especially with Eldar. Having said that, I think we should be putting point values on them and having the scenarios give point costs towards transports.

Also, having a battle barge that counts as a transport in planetary assault missions is worth way more than 15pts. It is like old Necrons vs old Eldar: GG, go home Eldar player. Space Marines will be taking your planet. This needs to change.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: BaronIveagh on April 13, 2013, 02:59:11 AM
Something should really be done about fire ships too.  As things stand they're absolutely useless.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Tyberius on April 13, 2013, 03:39:07 AM
Something should really be done about fire ships too.  As things stand they're absolutely useless.
Yes, they should be at least faster (20 cm)
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 13, 2013, 12:54:42 PM
Wah O_o! Fire ships are far from useless. Just like the System ships or Defense moniters their strength is that you dont have to move them, just camp the objective and wait, they'll get their moment to shine and then die brilliantly.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: BaronIveagh on April 13, 2013, 04:02:09 PM
Wah O_o! Fire ships are far from useless. Just like the System ships or Defense moniters their strength is that you dont have to move them, just camp the objective and wait, they'll get their moment to shine and then die brilliantly.

Except that unlike sdf monitors, they have next to nothing by way of guns, armor, shields or HP.  Most people just shoot them dead long before they ever actually do anything, particularly if you camp the objective.   They're generally a waste of points.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Mallich on April 13, 2013, 04:03:11 PM
Can you guys look over this document and see if I have missed anything?
The PDF shows Q-ships as having 1 shield. Is this intentional? In the non-BFG:R rules they quickly got bumped up to 2 shields.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: afterimagedan on April 13, 2013, 04:11:11 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I'll check into it.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 13, 2013, 10:47:05 PM
Wah O_o! Fire ships are far from useless. Just like the System ships or Defense moniters their strength is that you dont have to move them, just camp the objective and wait, they'll get their moment to shine and then die brilliantly.

Except that unlike sdf monitors, they have next to nothing by way of guns, armor, shields or HP.  Most people just shoot them dead long before they ever actually do anything, particularly if you camp the objective.   They're generally a waste of points.

Maybe your doing something wrong? Ive never been let down by these, of course I dont just let them hang out to get shot at either...
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: BaronIveagh on April 13, 2013, 11:18:55 PM
Maybe your doing something wrong?

*shrug* dunno.  But every time I've had any, they've never lived long enough to do anything.  Granted, out of the five times I can remember, three were against races who sit back and laugh and point at ships that only have a 15cm speed, one was against Tau who blanketed the board with ord, but even IN just blasted them as soon as they came within 45cm.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 14, 2013, 12:15:27 AM
Hum Ive only really ever used them against transports or the odd ship that happened by in space. Hide them behind a planet and wait for something to drop to the low orbit table tho and its on like donkey kong :D. I know theyre good against escorts but theres not many people who will let their escorts get near them, well twice anyway.

Once again this wouldnt be nearly as bad an issue if planetary defenses could take special orders :/ AAF, even +3d6, would nearly double their movement potential and give them a much better strike range.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: horizon on April 14, 2013, 06:22:54 AM
Haven't any experience with Fireships. But minefields are pretty strong.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Bessemer on April 14, 2013, 07:11:29 AM
Yeah the key to using fire ships is low orbit, either as a surprise when coming down, or have them spring up as the enemy closes. Would anyone back a speed increase at an appropriate cost? (speed 20,25pts?)

Once again this wouldnt be nearly as bad an issue if planetary defenses could take special orders :/ AAF, even +3d6, would nearly double their movement potential and give them a much better strike range.

Always ran them as transports in that regard (ie:-1 ld, 3D6 AAF). Is this not the case? whoops :o
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Dragon Lord on April 14, 2013, 02:32:32 PM
The Ramilies should definitely be in the list given that the Fortress-Monastery is just a modified Ramilies.  I'm not sure about the inclusion of the Activated Blackstone Fortress though, it may have a 'defence' classification but it isn't really a true defensive installation (particularly as thematically they were used in attacks ;))

I also agree that planetary defences should be able to go on special orders other than Reload Ordnance, from a thematic stand-point Fire Ships should definitely be able to AAF, racing into the enemy fleet and then exploding is, after all, their raison d'etre.

The balance among the different planetary defences is generally I think a bit broken, the Ramilies is amazing, it costs as much as 2.5 battleships but can punch like 4.  Maybe it suffers a bit more against IN with Nova Cannons, but I've had one decimate a Chaos fleet pretty much single-handedly on several occasions.  Part of this is because unlike all other planetary defences the Ramilies can Brace and Lock On, and with each quadrant individually at that.  Minefields are pretty good and the weapons platforms and torpedo launchers are ok, because they can reach out to large ranges.  The standard Blackstone is also pretty good because it has a tonne of shields and turrets plus AV6, but the mid-range docks and space-stations are rubbish because of their lower shields and armour, plus inability to Brace and shorter ranged weapons.

Dragon Lord
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: BaronIveagh on April 14, 2013, 04:08:58 PM
What do we want to do about the new Ta'Shiro Fortress Stations in the new Codex: Tau Empire?  From the description it's somewhere between a Ramilies and a Craftworld...
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 14, 2013, 04:15:12 PM
I actually like the Orbitals and space stations but we play all static defenses as double launch capacity so that helps.

Minefields can be sick and are rightfully limited.

BSF is also good but its armor is only 5+ like the rest. The ABSF jumps to 6+ armor which I find odd.

I recommend playing through "Above Belis Corona", it drops a nice selection of defenses and is actually quite fun as both attacker and defender.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Dragon Lord on April 14, 2013, 04:26:32 PM
Quote from: BaronIveagh
What do we want to do about the new Ta'Shiro Fortress Stations in the new Codex: Tau Empire?  From the description it's somewhere between a Ramilies and a Craftworld...
That sounds to me like 'too big to realistically include', at least not outside a custom scenario based around one.  To be honest the Ramilies and Fortress-Monastery (or Ork space hulk for that matter) are verging on that level, they are best used in a scenario that is designed for them, or only as part of very large games.  I think I've only ever used my Ramilies in 4k+ level games.

Quote from: AndrewChristlieb
BSF is also good but its armor is only 5+ like the rest. The ABSF jumps to 6+ armor which I find odd.
Must have been thinking of the Activated Blackstone when I said armour 6+.  I do think all of the defences should have 6+ armour though, one of the whole points of an immobile fortress is you can pile as much armour on it as you want without having to worry about unwieldy manoeuvring.

Dragon Lord
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: BaronIveagh on April 14, 2013, 05:41:59 PM
Yeah the key to using fire ships is low orbit, either as a surprise when coming down, or have them spring up as the enemy closes.

Um, Bessemer, Fireships are a high orbit defense, not a low orbit defense.  IIRC you can't actually use them that way.

That sounds to me like 'too big to realistically include', at least not outside a custom scenario based around one.  To be honest the Ramilies and Fortress-Monastery (or Ork space hulk for that matter) are verging on that level, they are best used in a scenario that is designed for them, or only as part of very large games.  I think I've only ever used my Ramilies in 4k+ level games.

Eh, we do have stats for Craftworlds though, which are even bigger.  The picture for the new Tau orbital cities shows the old model at the core, and huge armored plates and ship sized pods (weapon batteries??) on it.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Bessemer on April 14, 2013, 06:09:14 PM
Yeah the key to using fire ships is low orbit, either as a surprise when coming down, or have them spring up as the enemy closes.

Um, Bessemer, Fireships are a high orbit defense, not a low orbit defense.  IIRC you can't actually use them that way.

A house rule if anything. we run as transports, that set up as ships, as opposed to HO defences with the option of hiding in low orbit. Otherwise they're just too vulnerable. Been running that for so long I kind of forgot the original set-up.

IIRC the Craftworld weighed in at 20 hits? Don't know if that was supposed to represent a smaller Craftworld though.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Dragon Lord on April 14, 2013, 06:34:44 PM
Quote from: BaronIveagh
Eh, we do have stats for Craftworlds though, which are even bigger.
I don't remember any stats for Craftworlds.  Craftworlds should definitely not exist outside a special scenario, they do not get involved in direct combat on a whim.  I would be strongly against including them in the planetary defences list or anywhere else (aside from maybe a special scenario) as aside from anything else any stats are either not going to be properly representative or obscene (or both).

Dragon Lord
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 14, 2013, 07:15:23 PM
Yeah the key to using fire ships is low orbit, either as a surprise when coming down, or have them spring up as the enemy closes.

Um, Bessemer, Fireships are a high orbit defense, not a low orbit defense.  IIRC you can't actually use them that way.

That sounds to me like 'too big to realistically include', at least not outside a custom scenario based around one.  To be honest the Ramilies and Fortress-Monastery (or Ork space hulk for that matter) are verging on that level, they are best used in a scenario that is designed for them, or only as part of very large games.  I think I've only ever used my Ramilies in 4k+ level games.

Eh, we do have stats for Craftworlds though, which are even bigger.  The picture for the new Tau orbital cities shows the old model at the core, and huge armored plates and ship sized pods (weapon batteries??) on it.

Fire ships are setup in high orbit but may enter low orbit, just like and other ship. Basically you just hide them behind the planet until someone enters low orbit then you move them into low orbit right behind them and... boom.

Heh Craftworlds... They used the Seaquest model for the article iirc which is something like 18-24" o_O It was a monster. It was featured in Planet Killer.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: horizon on April 14, 2013, 08:39:35 PM
Yeah, that Craftworld. It was much to small.
The old Doom of the Eldar/Yriel pdf had a scenario with a Craftworld, but the thing was not on the board. Only some guns that could take down Nids iirc. Board Edge was the CW.


As for special orders: I agree, defences should get the whole shizzle imo.

The Fireship can drop into low orbit ofcourse. ;) No surprise, but it is possible.

As for big Tau stations we should contact Harkon from Germany. See his space stations! Featured in Warp Rift.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: FistusMaximus on April 18, 2013, 11:41:42 PM
just want to throw something in regarding heavy transports:

the (GW-official) rogue trader fleet list also includes the note that heavy transports are 40 pts due to their superiority over regular transports.

in my gaming community, we have been experimenting with 40 and also 60 pts, and had good results so far.
(if its important: the fleets this experimenting was made with are IN, Chaos and SM)
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 19, 2013, 12:13:34 AM
Good points, they touched on that in the FAQ2010 also:

Quote
Heavy transports on p.160 of Armada are worth two
regular transports or 4 assault points. If they are
crippled, they are worth one regular transport or 2
assault points. Heavy transports count as cruisers for
purposes of movement and are destroyed if they land
on a planet‟s surface.

The price for heavy transports is not free; it is 40
points because of their great resiliency in comparison
to escort-sized transports. This is in addition to the
rule on p.159 stating no more than one third of the
transports in your fleet can be heavy transports, in
scenarios that require transports. To clarify, “no more
than one third” refers to the entire transport value.
For example, if a particular scenario calls for a total
of six transports, no more than one heavy transport
can be taken, since each one counts for two
transports. For every heavy transport in the fleet there
must already be at least four escort-sized full
transports, eight half-transports such as armed
freighters or Rogue Trader cargo vessels, or any
combination thereof.

So currently heavy transports are 40pts and have a restriction on them while standard transports are free and unrestricted.

Out of curiosity what was the reason for trying them at 60pts?
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: FistusMaximus on April 19, 2013, 12:20:39 AM

Out of curiosity what was the reason for trying them at 60pts?


easy:
we only have four regular transports, and use four heavy transports in addition to get a good size for convoy games.
the point is that this goes against the "only 1/3 of the transports may be heavy transports" rule, a rule that was intednded to limit the amount of heavy transports due to their increased resiliency.
so, to keep things fair, since half of the transports are heavies, we increased their points cost.

this gives us 360 points of ships to defend four small and four heavy transports, while the enemy gets 6+ d3 rolls on the table for attacking forces, we found this to usually be a very even match.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 19, 2013, 01:37:40 AM
That makes sense, convoy is a pita tho. It seems like everytime Ive played the attackers have either been screwed by the rolls or way overpowered.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: FistusMaximus on April 19, 2013, 05:14:48 PM
That makes sense, convoy is a pita tho. It seems like everytime Ive played the attackers have either been screwed by the rolls or way overpowered.

well, we have found that to be heavily dependant on the defender's fleet...
for example, i managed to win as attacker in a pretty even match even after some pretty terrible rolling on the table...

but i still have to agree, sometimes the attacker has either a very small chance to win if he screws up, or the defender is completely screwed when the attacker gets some seriously lucky dice rolls....

we still are trying to figure out if there's a better way to make the attackers work.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: AndrewChristlieb on April 19, 2013, 07:52:57 PM
Attacker and defender have equal points to choose their fleet with and attacker gets D3 ordinance markers (randomly determined) for each transport pair has worked pretty well for us.
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: FistusMaximus on April 19, 2013, 08:06:37 PM
sounds pretty good, but personally, we in our gaming community actually like the random part of the convoy scenario, we take it as a challenge, much like the random leadership thing.

if the attacker gets few ships, its a challenge for him to win, if he gets a lot, its a challenge to the defender, we like that because sometimes we beat the opponent against the odds (winning against a really massive attacker or managing to destroy the convoy with few ships, it does happen  :D )

and considering that such a hard-fought victory against all odds is pretty damn glorious, we like that.  8)

we just try to ensure that it does not get too rough on one side, hence the 60 points for the heavy transports, making it easier for the attacker to achieve something with less ships...
and considering most of the people roll pretty crappy on the table, it usually turns out really fair  ;D
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Tyberius on April 23, 2013, 09:44:24 AM
Back in Warp rift magazine #19 there was a great article called "Navis Mercantilis" where Cels made an incredible super heavy transport barge, and he also created a series of varied sized transports and rules for fielding them on convoy scenarios.

That inspired me to steal the idea and rework it so we in my community could use it  Notice that heavy transports replaces 3 normal transports (and have 3 times the cargo space too) instead of 2 making their incresed resilence less determining and their destruction more significant.

maybe we could include some of this transport ships in bfg:R

(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/3002/engpag1copy.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img20/9967/engpag2copy.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img16/3199/engpag3copy.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img838/3171/engpag4copy.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img402/2521/engpag5copy.jpg)

Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: radu lykan on April 23, 2013, 10:33:30 AM
i like the idea of variant transports, the warp rift article was nice and it provides extra modelling opportunities when your fleet is "finished"
any ramping up of defences is good in my book as they are under represented plus it would give me incentive to get my scratch built ones finished
Title: Re: BFG:R Planetary Defenses List
Post by: Metathiax on September 05, 2014, 10:12:47 PM
I am actually Looking to get in touch with Harkon.  Does anyone know his site URL or a way to contact him?