The Specialist Arms Forum

Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: Phthisis on January 31, 2011, 04:09:24 AM

Title: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Phthisis on January 31, 2011, 04:09:24 AM
I'm looking for a ruling on the wording of the sensor upgrade "widowmaker" cobra configuration.  An opponent of mine is claiming that the entire fleet gains the +2Ld bonus for enemy on SO.  I claim that it's only the squadron with the cobra with the upgrade in it that gets the bonus.

The situation is that he is using the Ork Clans ruleset and is trying to utilize the Bloodaxe rules to include a single cobra in a Ravager squadron and gain a +2Ld to his entire fleet.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Vaaish on January 31, 2011, 04:36:47 AM
I think this is more indicative of a problem with the draft Ork Clanz rules than the Cobra rules. It should probably be noted that the bloodaxes must take the escorts in their stock profile without any of the available upgrades.

In terms of Cobras though, I've only ever seen it played as granting the squadron +2 if the enemy is on SO like the +1 the emperor and Oberon get for their upgraded sensors. Trying to weasel a +2 to leadership in an ork fleet using a single IN escort smacks of lawyering in my book since I can't see that as allowed or intended in the rules.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Sigoroth on January 31, 2011, 05:11:49 AM
Squadron only. If it was fleet wide they'd have stipulated it. About the only broken aspect of the rule is adding one of these Cobras to a squadron of Vipers. Never been an issue before of course.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Plaxor on January 31, 2011, 06:17:56 AM
God, the viper thing is going to be so dumb.

I had an opponent for a while who used the 'widowmaker' thing to its extremes. Taking only 1 cobra with a wm, putting it in with swords, firestorms, RT escorts
Annoying, but I guess not that big a deal.


Another note: From the RT list, you could reserve in a 'RT armed freighter' into a squad of widowmakers, practically giving them a +2 to their leadership. I suppose not that great, but interesting.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: horizon on January 31, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
I like the widowmaker upgrade. I am planning to run 1 Cobra in my squadron of Cobra's as such (the model with the 'hook').

But yes, squadron only.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: RCgothic on January 31, 2011, 02:37:44 PM
...

I can't believe it's never occured to me to run 1 Cobra Widowmaker in a squadron of anything else!

Falchions and Vipers in particular would benefit.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Valhallan on January 31, 2011, 03:08:55 PM
it seems great till your squadrons come under fire. then the 4+ armor of that cobra really just gets it blown up quick. - so the trick really only works [well] with vipers....
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: horizon on February 01, 2011, 08:15:22 AM
Or Cobra's. ;)
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: RCgothic on February 01, 2011, 01:57:28 PM
Squadron coherency could help the cobra out - it only needs to be within 15cm, which would be enough to put it outside of a range bracket that threatened the rest of the squadron.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: flybywire-E2C on February 03, 2011, 12:49:32 AM
Widowmaker Ld bonus is squadron only.

The upgrade can only be taken by squadrons made up entirely of Cobras.

The Widowmaker refit is ONLY available to Imperials, NOT renegade Chaos or kommandeered Ork vessels.

Keep in mind that in the Gothic Sector fleet list, this was an experimental system made available to ONE destroyer squadron in all of Battlefleet Gothic. Andy C. has stated in the past that special rules apply to any ship or squadron that wants to take them as long as the special rule isn't self-regulating (such as "one of"). This same ruling is how the Acheron is suddenly no longer a "one-of" ship. The HA's have respected this, but it certainly has opened up a Pandora's Box that has been a lot of fun trying to keep abreast of.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: flybywire-E2C on February 03, 2011, 05:37:34 AM
I actually rolled some dice and pushed a squadron around over this, and there isn't a lot of impact if it is phrased, "All the Cobras in a squadron must take this upgrade, and they must make up at least half the ships in a squadron." This allows for some clever add-ins but avoids such ridiculousness like five Vipers and one souped-up Cobra.

Everything else posted previously remains unchanged.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Plaxor on February 03, 2011, 05:58:26 AM
Agreed. Good ruling Nate. It was really kind of a bad markup.

I would write it as such:

Cobra squadrons are occasionally fitted with an advanced sensor array that increases the leadership bonus from enemies being on special orders from +1 to +2 in exchange for losing its weapons battery. It takes quite a few escorts with this modification to be able to utilize and coordinate the advanced sensor technology, so every Cobra in the squadron must have this upgrade. If the Cobras are taken in a squadron with other escorts, they still need a substantial number to work the systems, so at least half the escorts in the squadron must be cobras with this upgrade.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Don Gusto on February 03, 2011, 11:11:51 AM
I think the intention of the upgrade was this:

"This upgrade affects the entire squadron and can only be taken by a pure cobra squadron."
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: flybywire-E2C on February 03, 2011, 03:29:58 PM
I think the intention of the upgrade was this:

"This upgrade affects the entire squadron and can only be taken by a pure cobra squadron."

Agreed, which was my first response. However, I don't object to no less than half the squadron AND all Cobras taking the upgrade. I'll see how this plays out over the next few days and toss this past the HA's. Before anyone makes the suggestion otherwise, Cobras are the only kind of individual escort that EVER gets this upgrade.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: horizon on February 03, 2011, 07:57:57 PM
As long as I can use 1 Widowmaker Cobra in a 3 strong squadron I'm fine.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Sigoroth on February 03, 2011, 08:22:42 PM
As long as I can use 1 Widowmaker Cobra in a 3 strong squadron I'm fine.

It would seem that you would need 2 widowmakers in that squadron.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: horizon on February 04, 2011, 04:30:54 AM
Then I am not fine. :(
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: RCgothic on February 04, 2011, 08:56:44 AM
I don't see why it can't be left as is.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: horizon on February 04, 2011, 01:37:15 PM
Me neither.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Phthisis on February 10, 2011, 06:35:33 PM
All I care is that the wording is changed to specifically state its squadron only. 
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Taggerung on February 10, 2011, 10:22:30 PM
It's pretty obvious it's meant to be squadron only. I am not sure why Jon thought it meant fleet wide, and I should have read the rules before using it myself.
Title: Re: Cobra 'Widowmaker' wording vague
Post by: Phthisis on February 14, 2011, 03:40:57 AM
He explained to me how he came up with that interpretation.  All the other instances where ships give bonuses to leadership there is wording that specifies that ship is the beneficiary.  The wording for the widowmaker doesn't specify the squadron as the beneficiary.  All it says is +2 to leadership when enemy are on special orders.  Since the wording was different he assumed the bonus was different, ie fleetwide.