The Specialist Arms Forum

Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Discussion => Topic started by: Zelnik on December 03, 2010, 04:19:27 AM

Title: BFG's Fate
Post by: Zelnik on December 03, 2010, 04:19:27 AM
So, Now that we have seen almost all of blood bowl turned into a rather remarkable video game, do you think Battlefleet gothic is next? you can't deny, Relic entertainment has the best track record for making amazing space games (homeworld 1 and 2), so much that there are ships in BFG that are built off of races in the games in question!

Do you think we can expect Battlefleet Gothic converted into a video game?
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 03, 2010, 01:12:53 PM
There have been a few efforts to mod other space games to BFG, including Homeworld  2 and SoaSE.  So far, most of these have fallen apart.

Unfortunately, BFG tends to fall on it's face when actual 3-d combat is involved, as the ship designs are hideously unsuitable for anything resembling battle in anything but a 2-d environment. 
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Zelnik on December 03, 2010, 01:39:54 PM
Heh i could have told ya that one :D

But since blood bowl has survived it's digital conversion with it's rules in tact, why not BFG? it's not like it has a complex system.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: RCgothic on December 03, 2010, 01:48:14 PM
There are plenty of examples of good space games that conveniently ignore the 3rd dimension. Starfleet Command and ST Armada being two examples.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 03, 2010, 03:48:51 PM
There are plenty of examples of good space games that conveniently ignore the 3rd dimension. Starfleet Command and ST Armada being two examples.

Never played either one of them, but I have played some of Relic's other space combat games, and BFG would fare poorly in these waters.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: RCgothic on December 03, 2010, 05:05:41 PM
Empire Total War also has a decent 2D Naval Combat system.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 03, 2010, 06:06:42 PM
Empire Total War also has a decent 2D Naval Combat system.

Except space is not 2-d.  And the majority of gamers know this.  After all, Space Marines do not march through empty space to fight one another, outside of the eye of terror, where all the rules take a holiday anyway.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: RCgothic on December 03, 2010, 06:49:33 PM
Much like Star Trek and Star Wars to a lesser extent, W40k is a subscriber to the trope Space is an Ocean. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean)
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Xyon on December 03, 2010, 07:34:58 PM
Kind of hard to represent 3d on a 2d playing surface, oh.. like a table.  You'd have to get into abstract rules for tokens, sliders, or clickers to represent the z access.

Having said that, I would love a BFG video game to be made and dont give a hoot if its 2d or 3d.  I would prefer 2d though.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 03, 2010, 11:38:46 PM
Yes, but for a video game to be successful, we have to appeal to the other gamers out there that don't necessarily care about BFG's TT roots, they care about space ships going pew pew and many of them expect there to be an up and down (EvE online, Homeworld, etc)  Even Sins, which is largely flat, as a certain amount of Up and Down to it
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: RCgothic on December 04, 2010, 09:51:16 AM
Star Wars Empire at War, another very successful 2D Space game, and in a lot of ways very similar to what BFG would be.

The fact of the matter is that Imperial ships are hideously equipped to shoot at ships out of a roughly 2D plane. Yes, they could engage high/low ships by rolling about their Z axis, but that would be a significant departure from the TT gameplay and it doesn't look very cinematic to have all the ships at different roll angles to each other.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Xyon on December 04, 2010, 12:14:02 PM
If you make it 3d, it would be a completely different game.  BFG isnt a flight sim, and I havent seen a strategy game that uses 3d that  gained anything by doing 3d instead of just staying 2d.  All of them could have been 2d and done just as well.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: lastspartacus on December 06, 2010, 05:09:11 AM
3d graphics and 2d playstyle would be hella fun.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Easy e on December 08, 2010, 05:01:53 PM
Totally unrelated, anyone think of adding AI's altitidue rules with BFG? 

Could make the game a bit more... ahem... three dimensional.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 13, 2010, 05:34:27 AM
Totally unrelated, anyone think of adding AI's altitidue rules with BFG? 

Could make the game a bit more... ahem... three dimensional.

Shhh.... you'd be burned as a heretic for suggesting that sort of thing... LOL
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Xyon on December 13, 2010, 07:59:53 PM
I've never read the AI rules so I dont know what that would do.    I do think having some kind of  'momentum' system would be good though, since it is realistic for space.  But adding some 3d would be realistic too.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Zhukov on December 13, 2010, 09:26:37 PM
Making BFG a video game...

Easy actually. Just use a Total War or Empire at War technique. Turn based campaign maps? Already have rules for that. Commanding the ships in a battle? If using 2-D space with 3-D graphics, already have rules for that. Special Orders would have time limits for how long they are in affect (with BFI starting the timer over and replacing whatever other SO the ship/squadron is on.

First issue I see however is that BFG battles tend to be small. Where this is not an issue to some video gamers in that it makes using your resources wisely, many gamers are attracted to the huge fleets and such. This could be easily remedied by having a scenario editor. This also allows for the possibilities of making "Historical Battles".

-Zhukov
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 13, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
Making BFG a video game...

Easy actually. Just use a Total War or Empire at War technique. Turn based campaign maps? Already have rules for that. Commanding the ships in a battle? If using 2-D space with 3-D graphics, already have rules for that. Special Orders would have time limits for how long they are in affect (with BFI starting the timer over and replacing whatever other SO the ship/squadron is on.

First issue I see however is that BFG battles tend to be small. Where this is not an issue to some video gamers in that it makes using your resources wisely, many gamers are attracted to the huge fleets and such. This could be easily remedied by having a scenario editor. This also allows for the possibilities of making "Historical Battles".

-Zhukov

Considering how Napoleon: Total War bombed, that's probably not a good idea. 

Let's look at successful space RTS: Homeworld (1/2), Nexus: The Jupiter Incident, ST: Armada 2, and Sins.

Most of these involved a 3rd dimension to the game (even sins) where by simply flying 'over' the 2d plane that most structures are built on, you can bypass them.  Games that have used a 2-d 'space as the ocean' approach have, more often then not, sold badly. 
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Zhukov on December 13, 2010, 10:22:31 PM

Well let's be fair, Napolean was an expansion pack. Empire: Total War is the original. And the Total War series has been very successful as a whole.

Back on the subject now.

Only ones I have played is Sins and Star Wars Empire at War(not the greatest example but still valid to bring up (never had the money to go crazy with video games and minis at the same time :( )). Sins doesn't have much of a 3-D effect to it and having played it extensively I would say its more of a 2-D game with 3-D graphics. But something I think for a BFG game is the whole game may not be suitable for RTS consistently like Sins. It's entirely doable, but I don't think it works well for it. The appeal for Battlefleet Gothic is to focus more on the tactics of each battle, not the grand strategic level where you just build a fleet and send it off and hope it's enough to conquer the system without needing to dictate every ships maneuver.

Now I honestly think a 40k Universe BFG space game is not hard even for total 3-D. I think the fleet with the hardest time in this situation is Chaos. Without a lot of firepower to the front and no hardened armor, it seems to me they will always play more stand-off ish. Imperial wouldn't even have a problem. Go straight at the enemy and rotate the vessel if the enemy chooses to go above/below the area of engagement. I could see ramming being an issue though... Otherwise, the alien fleets will play a lot like most of the fleets that exist in games now (such as Eve).

-Zhukov
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Zhukov on December 14, 2010, 05:28:39 PM

Well let's be fair, Napolean was an expansion pack. Empire: Total War is the original. And the Total War series has been very successful as a whole.

Back on the subject now.

Only ones I have played is Sins and Star Wars Empire at War(not the greatest example but still valid to bring up (never had the money to go crazy with video games and minis at the same time :( )). Sins doesn't have much of a 3-D effect to it and having played it extensively I would say its more of a 2-D game with 3-D graphics. But something I think for a BFG game is the whole game may not be suitable for RTS consistently like Sins. It's entirely doable, but I don't think it works well for it. The appeal for Battlefleet Gothic is to focus more on the tactics of each battle, not the grand strategic level where you just build a fleet and send it off and hope it's enough to conquer the system without needing to dictate every ships maneuver.

Now I honestly think a 40k Universe BFG space game is not hard even for total 3-D. I think the fleet with the hardest time in this situation is Chaos. Without a lot of firepower to the front and no hardened armor, it seems to me they will always play more stand-off ish. Imperial wouldn't even have a problem. Go straight at the enemy and rotate the vessel if the enemy chooses to go above/below the area of engagement. I could see ramming being an issue though... Otherwise, the alien fleets will play a lot like most of the fleets that exist in games now.

-Zhukov
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: horizon on December 14, 2010, 07:24:49 PM
I don't care. I don't play Computer/Console games.

I still live in the past. Monkey Island II is still the best game ever.

Oh those old days.. Sensible Soccer, Space Quest, It Came from the Desert, Quest for Glory, Monkey Island I, Indy III & IV, etc

aaah yeah!


ahem...
sorry for the hi-jack.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: TheTuninator on December 14, 2010, 10:22:56 PM
Sins of a Solar Empire is a perfect example of the way a BFG game could be done. It's fully 3D, and strikingly so, yet combat essentially takes place in two dimensions. There was even an (unfortunately now dead) BFG mod for it, which looked pretty damn good:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wlZTBHJsIw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wlZTBHJsIw&feature=related)
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Valhallan on December 15, 2010, 02:36:11 AM
Yeah, the Sins BFG mod was depressing... invisible torpedoes that wouldn't fire straight OR ignore shields... and zooming in too close on the ships - they'd disappear!

I could see the space combat in Star wars Rebellion as feasible (never played empire at war or whatev'.)

Really though, I'd want something as specific and tedious as Xcom or Chaos Gate - but in space.

**hell ya quest for glory!**
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Ruckdog on December 15, 2010, 03:48:04 AM
I dunno...I thought that the Sins of a Solar Empire mod worked well as far as gameplay/visuals went. It just never got finished. The biggest problem with making BFG into an RTS style game is that it spoils some of the fluff, since the ships are all supposed to be ancient. That makes it hard to build them in a few minutes from a factory at your base  ;D.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: Zhukov on December 15, 2010, 03:44:07 PM

Well that is easily remedied ya know. Having Battleship hulks drift into and out of your territory for you to try and hijack could be the proper access. The escorts and light cruisers wouldn't have a problem being built in the frequency of the game (whether RTS or turn based). Cruisers and Heavy Cruisers are a bit more problamatic. Maybe if you start out with a fleet you can include the cruisers then?
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 16, 2010, 03:14:30 AM
Anther possibility would be that you select your fleet at the start of the game, total war style.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: RCgothic on December 16, 2010, 01:13:29 PM
Or you don't really build vessels, but requisition them from other sectors or forge worlds as you gain more renown/importance.
Title: Re: BFG's Fate
Post by: BaronIveagh on December 16, 2010, 10:35:27 PM
Or you don't really build vessels, but requisition them from other sectors or forge worlds as you gain more renown/importance.

Or as the fighting in your sector increases in importance ships from surrounding sectors trickle in.  But this would only be good for the single player mode.