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Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Rules Questions => Topic started by: Zhukov on September 27, 2010, 03:52:53 PM

Title: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on September 27, 2010, 03:52:53 PM

So I own about 1200 pts of Dark Eldar and I love the fleet (They play some amazing games against Necrons)! But two things I would like to see changed:

1. Slavetaking should be 20 or 30 pts for a successful raid. This would give me much more incentive to do this. As it stands, at 10 pts per successful A-Boat squadron, I never do it. We should have some more incentive to do this "often foolhardy" perverse thing.

2. The Dark Eldar wouldn't mind a bigger ship.

In regards to the latter, I know many people have discussed a Dark Eldar Battleship. I totally disagree with this. The DE having this size of a ship just doesn't make sense to me. If the DE have a bigger vessel, I would give them the option of upgrading ONE cruiser for a certain points cost with these benefits:

+2 Hit points
+4 Weapons Batteries strength.


If armed with Shadow Lances, upgrade to strength 3 (or 4?)
If armed with Torpedoes, upgrade to strength 6
If armed with Impalers, upgrade to strength 2 (This may even be something to consider for normal cruisers as right now I see no reson to give a DE cruiser an Impaler since the escorts can be armed with them)

Any thoughts? You can discuss the appropriate points cost as I have no idea what would be "fair" to this.

-Zhukov 
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on September 27, 2010, 04:30:41 PM
DE are just their cousins turned bad. I'm pretty sure in when they were still one race, they all had access to battleships so even if you may think they it doesn't make sense, it doesn't mean the DE can't have one when they split with their cousins.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on September 27, 2010, 04:40:01 PM

Oh I realize this. But honestly, does every fleet need a Battleship sized vessel? I say no. The DE have some great flavor with being forced to have 3 escorts per cruiser (THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE FOR EVERY FLEET!!!! wink wink ;) ). How would you get a BB on the table with the above restriction already in place? Because they would need some restrictions besides just a certain number of points in a fleet (like the Void Stalker) to keep with the DE flavor.

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on September 27, 2010, 06:00:14 PM
As said I want DE to follow same mechanics as CWE and CE.

They are all ELDAR.

That's why I made 1 thread for all three of them. :)
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on September 27, 2010, 06:17:08 PM

Oh I realize this. But honestly, does every fleet need a Battleship sized vessel?
-Zhukov

YES! :p
It would be nice if DE either had more class options, or just give them a grand cruiser and battleship variant that are both as modular as their other ships, and call it even.

As i much prefer MMS rules, it would be nice to see them brought in line with those, with their own unique flavor of course.
Someone should volunteer to work on this.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on September 27, 2010, 11:00:33 PM

Oh I realize this. But honestly, does every fleet need a Battleship sized vessel? I say no. The DE have some great flavor with being forced to have 3 escorts per cruiser (THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE FOR EVERY FLEET!!!! wink wink ;) ). How would you get a BB on the table with the above restriction already in place? Because they would need some restrictions besides just a certain number of points in a fleet (like the Void Stalker) to keep with the DE flavor.

-Zhukov

Easy enough. For every X amount of points you get one DE battleship similar to the VS 1 per 1000 points.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on September 28, 2010, 04:56:58 AM
That works.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on September 28, 2010, 06:15:28 PM

Dark Eldar =/= Corsair or Craftworld Eldar. I'm sorry but I believe they should have as little similarities as possible. But this is my opinion on that subject. I must confess though I have limited fluff knowledge on the track this branch of Eldar took after the fall in relation to former technologies of the Empire.

Heavy/Grand Cruiser is what I was looking for, something similair to Flame of Asuryan. What if the condition to field this sized vessel was 1000 pts minimum and needing at least two cruisers present to field it? I think this prevents escort only fleets emerging.

-Zhukov


Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on September 30, 2010, 08:09:04 AM
Little similarities? Culture might be different but I don't think the similarities would be little. It would be more a case of Like and yet unlike.

Here's the DE battleship I made:

Dark Eldar Sadistic Class Battleship.........320
Type/Hits: Battleship/10
Speed: 30 cm
Turns: 90'
Shields: Shadowfield
Armor: 5+
Turrets: 0
Armament: Range/Speed|Firepower/Strength|Fire Arc
Prow Batteries: 45 cm|12|Front

In addition, may be equipped with two of the following for the points shown:

Prow Torpedo Tubes: 30 cm|6|Front +20 points
Prow Phantom Lance: 45 cm|2|Front +20 points
Impaler: AC 30 cm|Special|Front +20 points
Launch Bays: Fighters 30 cm/Bombers 20 cm/ABs 30 cm|4| +40 points

Note:
Does not automatically CTNH but can use CTNH and it's firepower is only reduced by 25% instead of being halved.

Must have 1,000 points worth of DE ships before one can be fielded.

Author's note:
I thought about giving DE the fastest battleship while not on Special Orders. Also gave it heavier firepower on the base ship configuration but only having 2 hardpoints for add-ons for a total of 3 armaments compared the the 4 weapon hardpoints that the Void Stalker has. Comments and critiques welcome.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: marengo on September 30, 2010, 01:20:16 PM
I'm with Zhukov all the way on this.

Imperial Navy and Space Marines same "race" different rules.
Why would Dark E, who have adopted all that other Eldar hate and despise, have the same rules as the other Eldar?

Im my experience Dark Eldar do just fine with what they already have, they just don't need a BB and making them the same as other races is not the best way to make each fleet individual.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on September 30, 2010, 01:28:03 PM
You have it wrong.

Eldar should share same core rules. Specialties & ships make them different (eg mimic engines for DE, Aspect Warriors for CWE).

Imperial Navy & Marines have exact the same core rules (movement, shield, etc).  Specialities and ship stats make them different (eg boarding bonus for Marines, Nova Cannon for Imperial Navy).

There is no justification for DE to have other technologies then CE/CWE. Shadowfields are holofields etc.

Thus same core rules. :)

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on September 30, 2010, 04:55:52 PM
Eldar (especially Corsair Eldar) don't need a BB really but they got one. Tell ya all what, drop the Coid Stalker from all Eldar lists and I'll agree with everyone who says DE shouldn't get a battleship. If CWE can get an Eldar ship, I don't see why the DE hiding in their homeworld can't have their own BB. They came from the same gene pool. They shared the same history until they diverged millenia ago. I reckon those who eventually became DE would have taken their share of weapons, armor and ships with them.

What is this? More Eldar Loving or Dark Eldar Hating from biased Eldar lovers?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zell_G on September 30, 2010, 05:26:54 PM
Eldar (especially Corsair Eldar) don't need a BB really but they got one. Tell ya all what, drop the Coid Stalker from all Eldar lists and I'll agree with everyone who says DE shouldn't get a battleship. If CWE can get an Eldar ship, I don't see why the DE hiding in their homeworld can't have their own BB. They came from the same gene pool. They shared the same history until they diverged millenia ago. I reckon those who eventually became DE would have taken their share of weapons, armor and ships with them.

What is this? More Eldar Loving or Dark Eldar Hating from biased Eldar lovers?

I mostly agree on letting the DE having their Battleship (even if I'm an Eldar player  ;D), but the Eldar built their first Void Stalker only after the battle of Gethsemane, and only with Lord Ravensburg's help (if I remember well), so I think that is the reason (even if it's only a "fluff reason") of Eldar for having one BB, and DE not .
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on September 30, 2010, 06:14:23 PM
No, it appeared during the alliance with Admiral Ravensburg. Nothing in the text actually says it was built that time. In fact the text even says that before, during and after the Gothic War, it has never been defeated.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zell_G on September 30, 2010, 06:35:00 PM
No, it appeared during the alliance with Admiral Ravensburg. Nothing in the text actually says it was built that time. In fact the text even says that before, during and after the Gothic War, it has never been defeated.

"For almost the entirety of the Gothic War, Eldar fleets were composed mostly of Escort ships accompanied by a few Cruisers. However, after the battle of Gethsemane and the alliance of many of the Eldar pirate fleets with Lord Ravensburg, a new terror was to hunt across the stars."

The paragraph says that during the entire Gothic War Eldar fleets where composed of Escort accompanied by cruisers, and that only after the alliance with Ravensburg the new ship "appeared".

Reading that paragraph I've understood that before that alliance the ship didn't exists at all (because it seems that the alliance with Ravensburg and the battle of Gethesmane are the two main events that led to the "appearance") ; but of course it isn't the only way of interpretation, I concur .
I thought that Ravensburg had borrowed them some Shipyards for the costrunction  ;D

I don't remember if there is something more about that events on Armada or some other book....
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on September 30, 2010, 07:41:07 PM
Hi,

with the idea of the HA to allow the Void Stalker in the CWE list a cool DE battleship should be allowed as well.

There is a part about a single Void Stalker hunting an Ork Hulk. In armada. Guess it is needed to hunt down that time frame and compare it to other time settings.
But I cannot phantom Ravensburg being the "creator" for such a vessel.

People always say Corsairs should have small ships but in an Eldar mind set it could go two ways: see they are dying in a way and need to be careful of their people.

Lots of small ships means that few die at a time when a small ship explodes.
A bigger ship offers more protection which means less people die because of small causes, however if it goes down a lot of them die.

So, what would you do? All in one basket, all or none die. Or spread your people and accept the occassional deaths?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zell_G on September 30, 2010, 07:47:28 PM
But I cannot phantom Ravensburg being the "creator" for such a vessel.

Of course not (it would be absurd), as I said I thought it would be some sort of help from Ravensburg, like that he "borrowed" them a ShipYard capable of building a vessel "out of normal Corsair scale" , but nothing more .

But, history apart, the "all in one basket" should be apossibility for Dark Eldar too (in my humble opinion)
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: patghiggins on September 30, 2010, 08:04:00 PM
I agree that DE should have a larger ship.  Dread Archon's and Archon are are hyper arrogant , conceited, and  egotistical. I would think that they would want to have something bigger something along the line of a Flame but with options to show the diversity of the different Cabals

Sort of like
Hit's 8 -- Speed 30 -- turn 90 -- Shadowfields -- Armor 5 -- Turret 0
WB       30cm    12   L/F/R
Torps    30cm     4       F
Phanton 45cm     2       F
Luanch Bay         2
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on September 30, 2010, 10:32:16 PM
No, it appeared during the alliance with Admiral Ravensburg. Nothing in the text actually says it was built that time. In fact the text even says that before, during and after the Gothic War, it has never been defeated.

"For almost the entirety of the Gothic War, Eldar fleets were composed mostly of Escort ships accompanied by a few Cruisers. However, after the battle of Gethsemane and the alliance of many of the Eldar pirate fleets with Lord Ravensburg, a new terror was to hunt across the stars."

The paragraph says that during the entire Gothic War Eldar fleets where composed of Escort accompanied by cruisers, and that only after the alliance with Ravensburg the new ship "appeared".

Reading that paragraph I've understood that before that alliance the ship didn't exists at all (because it seems that the alliance with Ravensburg and the battle of Gethesmane are the two main events that led to the "appearance") ; but of course it isn't the only way of interpretation, I concur .
I thought that Ravensburg had borrowed them some Shipyards for the costrunction  ;D

I don't remember if there is something more about that events on Armada or some other book....

Again read further on to see the part I described. If it was created during or after Gethsemane, then it would not have existed before the Gothic War.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on September 30, 2010, 11:47:16 PM
It would be pretty neat actually if the CWE also had a dedicated battleship of their own.  Makes more sense for them to have one even than the corsairs.  Maybe they do.
I'm at work and can't pull up the PDF at the moment, and I only read the corsair part, cuz I like them most.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 01, 2010, 12:09:15 AM
Ray Bell prefers to allow the CWE access to the VS and the CE have a harder time getting it. At least that's what I recall.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on October 01, 2010, 03:07:16 AM
Ah. I always thought it was a more corsair ship.  

Edit:  Ah, the CWE have the Wyrm class.  Poor corsairs dont have one and CWE get two ;)
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zell_G on October 01, 2010, 06:25:28 PM
Again read further on to see the part I described. If it was created during or after Gethsemane, then it would not have existed before the Gothic War.

Sorry, I admit that i'm not an history expert, I didn't know that the other facts occurred during the Gothic War : I thought that they were subsequent   :)
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Yegr on October 01, 2010, 07:17:05 PM
I think that anything bigger then a cruiser in a DE fleet is completly unfluffy.
DE are a raiding force. They choose on what ground they wish to fight, and therefore there is no real need for them to have a battlecruiser/battleship class ship- DE generally don't fight "battles" in sense of a meeting engagement of two large fleets. They don't fight to control space (unlike CWE and CE), thus they don't need very large ships.

I might be missing something in which case I'll be happy to hear a reasonable explanation why the DE should have bigger ships then they do have right now.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on October 01, 2010, 07:21:44 PM
They are usually encountered in raiding forces, but if you think they don't have higher agendas, or don't have things larger than cruisers patrolling their part of the webway around Commoragh...well, I just dont see it.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on October 01, 2010, 07:23:51 PM
Yegr, read my arguments. Plus, in the slavetaking department and the mental state of Archon's or Haemonculi a battleship is more warranted in a Dark Eldar fleet then in a Corsair fleet.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 01, 2010, 09:43:45 PM
I think that anything bigger then a cruiser in a DE fleet is completly unfluffy.
DE are a raiding force. They choose on what ground they wish to fight, and therefore there is no real need for them to have a battlecruiser/battleship class ship- DE generally don't fight "battles" in sense of a meeting engagement of two large fleets. They don't fight to control space (unlike CWE and CE), thus they don't need very large ships.[/quote[

Same arguments can be said for both CWE and CE. They all prefer to hide and run rather than have to fight. Eldar have no more penchant for fighting to control space any more than DE. Sorry but you have to do better to convince me DE can't have their own battleship.

I might be missing something in which case I'll be happy to hear a reasonable explanation why the DE should have bigger ships then they do have right now.

It's called the Void Stalker.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Yegr on October 01, 2010, 11:12:54 PM
Yegr, read my arguments. Plus, in the slavetaking department and the mental state of Archon's or Haemonculi a battleship is more warranted in a Dark Eldar fleet then in a Corsair fleet.

Yes I did. And I can see nothing that would stand in relation to my reservations - I still don't see a reason for them using a battleship. The DE are practically the only race in wh40k universe that can pick their battles where and when they like. They attack where they can find easy prey.
What would they need a battleship for?
I'm not questioning it would be good for them to have one, but so would be more torpedoes for chaos, more shields for space marine vessels etc. But there isn't much in way of fluff that I can see, that would lead in this direction.

As for the argument about a BB being a result of some DE megalomania: building a ship of this size requires not only mental illness (what you suggest), but also power- power that comes form some sort of cunning, treachery etc.
A Archon who use much of his/her's power to construct such a ship would most likely be betrayed and killed along the way. There is a fine line between being paranoid and alive, and completely mad and soon to be dead.
A Heamonculi should be a figure behind building a DE BB? - that's not really in his'/her's type of interests.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 02, 2010, 12:34:04 AM
Yes I did. And I can see nothing that would stand in relation to my reservations - I still don't see a reason for them using a battleship. The DE are practically the only race in wh40k universe that can pick their battles where and when they like. They attack where they can find easy prey.
What would they need a battleship for?

Anything smaller than a battleship would definitely count as easy prey wouldn't it?

As for the argument about a BB being a result of some DE megalomania: building a ship of this size requires not only mental illness (what you suggest), but also power- power that comes form some sort of cunning, treachery etc.
A Archon who use much of his/her's power to construct such a ship would most likely be betrayed and killed along the way. There is a fine line between being paranoid and alive, and completely mad and soon to be dead.
A Heamonculi should be a figure behind building a DE BB? - that's not really in his'/her's type of interests.


A battleship need not be a result of being built after the DE split off from their cousins. It could already have been in existence at the time. Sure the usual betrayal and killing would be the norm even in such a ship. Then again, wouldn't a ship like that be something worthwhile to kill for?  ;D
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: patghiggins on October 02, 2010, 05:39:30 PM
It might be good to see what kind of fluff they put in the the new 40K Codex, to give us a better idea of how the DE would deploy different ship types
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Yegr on October 03, 2010, 10:48:12 AM
Anything smaller than a battleship would definitely count as easy prey wouldn't it?
Yes- but why would they wish to attack another battleship, when they can easily evade it (in a strategic scale), and always hit at the 'soft' targets. I see no logic here. - apart from "because we could". This is the reason I think DE are only a raiding fleet.
Why besiege a castle, when you invade just for loot/slave taking/joy of killing,  and there's plentiful of this outside of the castle walls?
DE pick fights in which they can play with the enemy.

A battleship need not be a result of being built after the DE split off from their cousins. It could already have been in existence at the time. Sure the usual betrayal and killing would be the norm even in such a ship. Then again, wouldn't a ship like that be something worthwhile to kill for?  ;D
You mean in the time in which the Eldar ruled the stars (i.e. before the Fall) and didn't need warships as they are now know (I'm obviously not mentioning the time of war against Necrontyr - as such it was sooooo long ago- probably nothing is left of it)?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 03, 2010, 12:58:24 PM
Yes- but why would they wish to attack another battleship, when they can easily evade it (in a strategic scale), and always hit at the 'soft' targets. I see no logic here. - apart from "because we could". This is the reason I think DE are only a raiding fleet.
Why besiege a castle, when you invade just for loot/slave taking/joy of killing,  and there's plentiful of this outside of the castle walls?
DE pick fights in which they can play with the enemy.

Why would the DE attack another battleship? Maybe the battleship has been lain low. Maybe it can run rings around the enemy battleship. My DE battleship could actually catch anything smaller than it and do with it as its captain wishes. It can avoid any ship which could take it on. In this sense, it can easily play with the enemy as you say. Me big ship. Catch small ship. Have fun with crew.

You mean in the time in which the Eldar ruled the stars (i.e. before the Fall) and didn't need warships as they are now know (I'm obviously not mentioning the time of war against Necrontyr - as such it was sooooo long ago- probably nothing is left of it)?

How would you know they didn't need warships as they are now? Since they did have that battle with the Necrontyr, you really want to get rid of the only stuff which can take them on if they do come back?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on October 03, 2010, 06:58:55 PM
They may have 'ruled the stars' like the Imperium did, maybe even better, with the most powerful fleet and controlling interest in the galaxy.

But I assure you, plenty of threats were still around.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on October 04, 2010, 04:15:21 PM

Good! Lots of discussion while I was away!

Dark Eldar have in reality only one real home site left, Commoragh. That would be the only place left for the Dark Eldar to build new ships, in reality (well, maybe anything bigger than an escort sized vessel). Now, it's been a LONG time since the Fall and I think that even one millenia around Commoragh would see so many betryals and such that only a few of the fleet capital ships would be left from the original empire. Maybe as little as one or two. This to me thinks it's not a ship that should be seen in a Dark Eldar fleet list. Also, the Dark Eldar are not interested in attracting a lot of attention from the mainstream universe. If the Dark Eldar started flying around with 10 Hit Point BB's I think even the Exodite and Craftworld Eldar would be willing to hunt them down with aid from mankind. So to me I think this gives a good reason why a Dark Eldar fleet capital ship should not be more than 8 hit points.

This is why I basically proposed a slightly larger cruiser. Add some firepower to the existing cruisers weapon mods and call it a Grand Cruiser. I think first off it's fluffy and secondly, its easiest to do rules wise.

As an aside note, I would be in favor of giving DE cruisers now, the option of having 2 Impalers. Only having one gives it NO reason to take one over an escort.

@Horizon- As I realize that the Exodite, Craftworld, and Dark Eldar all come from the same backgrounds, it does not mean they should share the same technologies entirely. The Dark Eldar have been removed from the Universe as a whole for so long I cannot see them still using the same tech as their 'enlightened' brothers, if anything for the purposes of pride within the Dark Eldar "race". Not to mention, I love the differences in the three fleets as they stand now.

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on October 04, 2010, 08:10:00 PM
Hi Zhukov,
somewhere in an official canon thing it is mentioned the Dark Eldar have a second place akin to Commoragh.

Other Eldar would only defend vs Dark Eldar never hunt. Too risky.

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 04, 2010, 11:06:32 PM
A DE battleship raiding other ships and even small fleets weaker than it would not just let any ship get away to advertise it exists. It can even just return to Commoragh once-every-DE-gods-knows-when and so can survive betrayals if it has to.

Still no credible reason has been provided to show why DE cannot have a battleship the same as their cousins.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on October 04, 2010, 11:58:29 PM
Why not just give options, and those who feel a certain way about the fleet can take what they please? 
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on October 05, 2010, 03:32:23 PM

Horizon,
Well, ok your right in a way. I mentioned CWE and Corsairs hunting Dark Eldar with huge aide from mankind because man would need access to the Webway among other reasons to get to Commoragh. But I have a feeling that if the Dark Eldar seem to be getting united (by sending out larger ships and fleets) that the CWE and Corsairs would take notice first.

Spartacus,
Me and the Admiral are arguing two ship profiles that do exactly that. The thing is though is his BB argument gives the DE something of a rip of the Void Stalker whereas my Grand Cruiser type is just an upgunned cruiser. Basically where his ship might gain a range advantage and a third weapon profile, I have stronger weapons.

Admiral,
Our argument is mostly about a fleet capital ship being 8 or 10 hit points correct? Because if you look at Warp Rift 16, the authors of the big DE article didn't believe in a vessel bigger than 6 HP's. Though, I hate that Mortalitas ship. Not good, not good.

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on October 05, 2010, 06:05:08 PM
Hell, give em both a grand and a BB :p

Or even a ship class both CWE and DE use.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 05, 2010, 09:48:37 PM
Zhukov, they and you believe. Not me. And basically it's our opinions unless otherwise clarified by the HA. As long as nothing bars the DE from getting a battleship, I think they can.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: fracas on October 05, 2010, 10:37:22 PM
DE should get a flagship that is larger and more grand than a 6HP cruiser
8HP should suffice, and one per fleet
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on October 07, 2010, 05:03:26 PM
The biggest thing I see Admiral is how are you going to model your 10 hit point ship? That would have to be a significantly larger vessel in terms of hull size. With an 8 HP ship, you could just model it by adding pieces from the existing pieces sold by GW. Case in point, the Dark Eldar Cruiser in Gothicomp this year. That would look sufficient for a fleet capital ship (8HP). In fact, it has ;)

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on October 07, 2010, 07:32:25 PM
Oh, Zhukov, endless possibilities. For one, I know the admiral's model...
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Admiral_d_Artagnan on October 07, 2010, 09:58:44 PM
The biggest thing I see Admiral is how are you going to model your 10 hit point ship? That would have to be a significantly larger vessel in terms of hull size. With an 8 HP ship, you could just model it by adding pieces from the existing pieces sold by GW. Case in point, the Dark Eldar Cruiser in Gothicomp this year. That would look sufficient for a fleet capital ship (8HP). In fact, it has ;)

-Zhukov

I've had one sitting around for a while. Just too lazy to paint it up.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on November 09, 2010, 06:18:27 PM
There are a lot of great ideas here, but many of them are difficult to incorporate into official rules for a fleet that consists primarily of an enormous number of independent and mutually antagonistic Cabals that exist solely as pirate raiders devoted primarily for the taking of slaves and raw materials from whoever or whatever they are strong enough to overcome. A Dread Archon is an imposing figure in WH40k terms, but in BFG terms an individual Dread Archon has at his disposal at best maybe three or four cruisers accompanied by a dozen escorts or so. Even the largest of them would have little more than twice these numbers, and they would not encumber themselves with larger vessels that would be correspondingly less maneuverable, not as fast, etc.

if anything, a Dread Archon's personal flagship would probaly have one or two refits as opposed to being something significantly larger or more powerful. As much as the Cabals hate each other, the first Archon that developed a ship significantly more powerful than his rivals would probably have said ship jumped, holed and offered up to Slaanesh. teh Dread Archon refits idea is something that can be added to the Eldar Domain rules if there is enough support, but we are not looking at creating a larger ship class, especially something that can't be easily modeled (meaning available as a single kit).

Based on the new Dark Eldar Codex, here are some other rules we are proposing for the Eldar Domains document:

When selecting scenarios, Dark Eldar always roll against the Raid table on p.65 of the rulebook. However, if the Dark Eldar fleet is the attacker and has a fleet 1,500 points or greater, they may elect to play a Planetary Assault on a D6 roll of 6 instead of rolling for it randomly. For campaigns, Dark Eldar fleets operate from a pirate base as described on p.151 of the rulebook and may earn up to three in the course of a campaign.

Shadowfield. The Dark Eldar utilize Shadowfields on all their starships, a more powerful and extremely stealthy version of the Night Shields utilized by their surface units. They work in the same manner as Holofields but impart an additional right-column shift (after all other modifiers are applied) to that provided by normal Holofields.

Then we add this note to the Eldar Haven:
Eldar Havens utilize shadowfields, which work as...

Then we modify the repulsion generators rule to become the Polarization Field that already exists in the Eldar refit tables. This makes this system a separate, pre-existing item in parallel with the Shadowfields as opposed to yet another something new. This way we don't have one mechanic for Eldar, a second mechanic for Dark Eldar and a THIRD mechanic for the Haven, which is the one thing that really bothered me about the Repulsion Fields mechanic.

Finally, if we incorporate this, we have to make the Netherfield refit unavailable to the Dark Eldar (roll again) because it and the new Shadowfield are essentially the same thing.

Thoughts?


- Nate






While they can and will engage in planetary assaults when they have the forces to do so, this is something even they will not do lightly.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on November 09, 2010, 06:50:35 PM
Hmm, mmehh. Whoa, I am worse!

I rather like a general holofield system for Dark Eldar, Corsair Eldar and Craftworld Eldar.*

Dark Eldar gain bonus from Mimic Engine as a DE specific "toy".



* Keep in mind I ditch the msm system for CE & CWE.

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on November 09, 2010, 08:27:20 PM
Hmm, mmehh. Whoa, I am worse!

I rather like a general holofield system for Dark Eldar, Corsair Eldar and Craftworld Eldar.*

Dark Eldar gain bonus from Mimic Engine as a DE specific "toy".



* Keep in mind I ditch the msm system for CE & CWE.



Agreed, but here's the problem. Yes, I know the biggest problem for a lot of people is MSM, but we are NOT adressing core rules right now. Basically the new DE Codex incorporates a mechanic to make them harder to hit that seems to work perfectly for the DE in BFG, since they DON'T benefit from MSM and they have to end movement prow-on in order to fire optimally. This seems to be a quick-and-dirty fix using a mechanic already in place until we address this more thoroughly in the future.

- Nate
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Plaxor on November 10, 2010, 04:15:30 PM
Dark Eldar gain bonus from Mimic Engine as a DE specific "toy".

I agree, I think DE are a quite underpowered, and mimic engines are just too expensive to buy for a little benefit. I think a good balancing technique would be to give them the upgrade for free.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: fracas on November 10, 2010, 04:42:13 PM
Dark Eldar gain bonus from Mimic Engine as a DE specific "toy".

I agree, I think DE are a quite underpowered, and mimic engines are just too expensive to buy for a little benefit. I think a good balancing technique would be to give them the upgrade for free.

Yes mimic engines should be standard for DE and leave the shdowfield as is
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on November 10, 2010, 05:44:39 PM
If anything, a Dread Archon's personal flagship would probaly have one or two refits as opposed to being something significantly larger or more powerful. The Dread Archon refits idea is something that can be added to the Eldar Domain rules if there is enough support, but we are not looking at creating a larger ship class, especially something that can't be easily modeled (meaning available as a single kit).

An easy solution at creating a "bigger class of vessel in one kit" is to have the player just add fins and such that are supplied when buying a booster pack to the cruiser. Case in point, the Dark Eldar cruiser in Gothicomp this year. That was incredibly easy to build and looks MUCH bigger than the other cruisers when side by side against them. (Most players call it a Battleship even though it's only a cruiser!)

Shadowfield. The Dark Eldar utilize Shadowfields on all their starships, a more powerful and extremely stealthy version of the Night Shields utilized by their surface units. They work in the same manner as Holofields but impart an additional right-column shift (after all other modifiers are applied) to that provided by normal Holofields.

I personally don't like this rule. The Eldar use the theory "speed=armor" and the Dark Eldar are "armor=armor" since they get 5+ armor on the cruisers. If you want to make a stronger Dark Eldar fleet, give the escorts 5+ armor too. Otherwise, don't change the rules for this fleet solely becasue they got an update in 40k.


Can we please give the Dark Eldar cruiser 2 Impalers in stead of 1??? There is ZERO incentive to arm a cruiser with the same armament as an escort!!!!

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Plaxor on November 10, 2010, 07:33:12 PM
Zhukov, yes the impaler needs to be doubled to have any worth on a torture. As well I could see the escorts being raised to 5 and instead having the mimic engines dropped to half cost.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on November 10, 2010, 11:06:45 PM
I was thinking the same thing recently.  Give it kind of a tusked look.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on November 12, 2010, 04:39:40 PM
This is pasted in from the Eldar Domains thread:

Zhukov,

Man oh man you could not be more right! Too many things on my brain like wanting DE to be more normal than Eldar!  ;D

Cheers,

RayB HA

Zhukov,

Ray, Bob and I see eye to eye on the DE in a lot of ways, and this fleet can be made really right with just a few tweaks. In the meantime, we may pull the Eldar Domains project back into hock and graft in any changes we make to the Dark Eldar concerning the Impaler, Mimic Engine, etc.

Concerning the Mimic engine itself, my son and I both like playing DE and agree this is a bit expensive for what it does (my son won't use it solely because of the price), but it should not necessarily be free.

- Nate

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Sigoroth on November 13, 2010, 02:40:51 AM
While you're at it, you can ditch a tonne of those Eldar refits too. Crap.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Oqlanth on November 19, 2010, 01:04:00 AM
Hailings from Turkey! :D
This is my first post so first of all I wish to greet you. As moderator of the only BFG community of Turkey I have to apology from you to learn this site very late.

As topic is Dark Eldar rules changes i think it is ok for me to talk about some rule change suggestion and some rule questions for dark eldar :D May be I can make enough lobby to change things in next offical changes :)

Rule Change Suggestion:

1- Impaler Assault Modules of Tortune Class Cruisers
As mentioned above 'single' assault module is expensive and less effective than any other options. I think for Tortune Class ships Impaler Assault Modules' strength 2.

2- Mimic Engines
Minic Engines are one of the trade mark features of Dark Eldar fleet but unfortunately overcosty when compared to it's effectiveness. And also makes fleet building very difficult.

Dark Eldar escorts becomes 70 points and cruisers become 250+ points (270-290) and unless you made regular combinations like 3 mimic escorts + 1 mimic cruiser with bays (this combination is 500 pts).

Also mimic engines have no use against necron or tyranids and have little use against most senarios (raids, etc)

And 70 points for Armour 4+ escort is very expensive!!!

So I suggest mimic engines will be default 'free' feature for Dark Eldar ships.

3- Large Dark Eldar Ship
I am at the side with 'no battleship for Dark Eldars'. It is unfluffy but a flagship like cruiser, similar to CWE's Flame of Asuryman will be great.

This ship can be based on default Tortune Class cruiser. And may like this one:


Fleet may include up to one flagship. Flagship only avalaible for 1000 points or higher fleets. If there is a flagship in your fleet your Dread Archon must be assigned to her.

0-1
300 points - Cruiser/8 - Speed:35cm - Turns 90 - Shield:Shadowfield - Armour: 5+ - Turrets:0

Prow Batteries Strength:12, 30cm, Front - Launch Bays, 4, Fighters 30cm,Bombers 20cm,Boats 30cm -
And pick one from Below:
Prow Phantom Lance, Strength 2 30cm, Front
Prow Torpedo Tubes, Strength 4 30cm, Front
2xImpaler Assault Module, Special, Attack Craft, 30cm, Front


4-Victory Points for Slaveraids
I suggest after succesfull hit and run attack with Impaler Assault Module attacker may choose to take 30 Victory Points instead of rolling 2d6 for critical hit.

Questions about Dark Eldar Rules:
Well I got some confusions for Dark Eldar rules. Here they are:

1-Attack Crafts
In 2007FAQ it says: Dark Eldar attack craft re-roll misses and enjoy any other benefits of equivalent Eldar attack craft.
So;
Raptor Fighter may re-roll 4+ save to remain in play.
Razorwing Bombers may re-roll how many attacks it makes (like other Eldar Bombers) AND re-roll misses in it's attacks.
Slavebringers may re-roll misses (1s) when enemy also has hit&run modifier (i.e. Space Marines).
Impaler Assault Modules may re-roll their missed 4+ saves against enemy Fighters AND may re-roll missed (1s) hit&run dices on first d6.

And all Assault Craft (and all other Dark Eldar ordrance) can only hit by turrets with 6s.

Am I correct?

2-Ordrance and Mimic Engines
If I release ordrance (assault craft) when under cover with Mimic Engines and can not be targetted by enemy, do I lose my coverage?

That's all from me for now. I want to apology again for my terrible English (it becomes worse after sleepless nights like this one! :S ).
Thanks
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on November 26, 2010, 02:28:31 AM
Zhukov, yes the impaler needs to be doubled to have any worth on a torture. As well I could see the escorts being raised to 5 and instead having the mimic engines dropped to half cost.

Allowing a DE cruiser to have two Impalers has passed muster with the HA's and will be in the FAQ. We are still discussing Mimic engines.

- Nate

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Plaxor on November 26, 2010, 05:29:17 AM
Thnx Nate. *win dance*
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on November 28, 2010, 05:29:12 AM

YES on the Impalers :)

I do agree the Mimic engine should not be free. How about just dropping it to +10 points for escorts or cruisers to take it and leave all other points costs the same? Played a few games that way and didn't have any issues with playability.

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on November 28, 2010, 05:37:20 AM
Thatl look really cool to model.  I believe mimic engines should be a standard fleet ability of the DE.

Free option for a single?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Oqlanth on November 28, 2010, 12:17:13 PM
if launching ordrance removes mimic engines stealth ability then they have to be free.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on November 29, 2010, 02:50:39 PM

Last time I asked the HA (and it was on this forum somewhere), just launching ordnance does not reveal a ship using mimic engines. Only when those pieces of ordnance actually engages an enemy is the Dark Eldar ship revealed.

-Zhukov
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on November 29, 2010, 03:20:06 PM

Last time I asked the HA (and it was on this forum somewhere), just launching ordnance does not reveal a ship using mimic engines. Only when those pieces of ordnance actually engages an enemy is the Dark Eldar ship revealed.

-Zhukov

This is correct and was expressed as such, but will be specifically clarified in the FAQ to avoid confusion.

- Nate

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Oqlanth on November 29, 2010, 07:38:48 PM
And I read all of these clarifications. This clearification is of course reasonable but makes mimic engines very very expensive too
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zhukov on January 14, 2011, 10:47:33 PM
FAQ 2010

Maybe this is just a refresher for me but:

The Slavebringer has listed it gets a +1 to hit and run attacks.
Then later it says all Dark Eldar hit and run attacks get a +1.

Do these stack?

-Zhukov

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on January 16, 2011, 03:15:45 AM
FAQ 2010

Maybe this is just a refresher for me but:

The Slavebringer has listed it gets a +1 to hit and run attacks.
Then later it says all Dark Eldar hit and run attacks get a +1.

Do these stack?

-Zhukov



Good question. No, these do NOT stack. I won't put out a FAQ revision based on this needing to be clarified, but I will loop it ito the file that gets sent to GW when all the projects are complete.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Xyon on January 18, 2011, 12:18:56 PM
I always thought of the dark eldar living in the webway most of the time, small raiding fleets fitting their profile better than battleships.  Adding more kinds of ships to be available would be good.  Maybe escorts with 2 or 3 hits. And some bigger cruisers would fit my view of their capabilities, but a battleship would seem a bit much.

Some people have spoken of ego and bravado and such behind an archon's motivations for the ship to use.  I think you'd get more bragging rights/ego as a dark eldar pulling off the same level of success in attacks/raids in a smaller vessel that another archon did in a bigger ship.   Kind of like how we use sayings like "I could do that with both arms tied behind my back"  or "Is that big gun you have overcompensating for something else?"
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: lastspartacus on January 18, 2011, 10:12:20 PM
Or, you know, for the defense of Cormoragh, which I can only assume is at least as big as the craftworlds that eldar battleships protect.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Sigoroth on January 19, 2011, 04:01:32 AM
Or, you know, for the defense of Cormoragh, which I can only assume is at least as big as the craftworlds that eldar battleships protect.

Eh? No one outside the Eldar knows where Commorragh is.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on January 19, 2011, 06:46:01 AM
Or its twin city.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zelnik on January 19, 2011, 09:33:43 PM
Commoragh is much larger then any craft world... they have enslaved two suns to power it for splibs sake.


There is no way to measure it's massive size... it's greatest defense is both it's size, its predatory nature, and it's hidden nature (Vect's plots aside of course)
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: flybywire-E2C on January 26, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
GW will not be addressing any core rule updates to fleets in Armadas so we can't address re-working the Dark Eldar. That being said, is there anything still not addressed in the FAQ concerning the DE? Assume we can make adjustments but NOT core rule changes. For example, incorporating the "Power of Pain" rule is something we can address with the FAQ. Changing how DE ships move or creating a DE grand cruiser is an example of something we can't address.

Please do not reply to this with a debate as to why we can't re-do the DE. We just can't. If it can't be addressed by the FAQ before this all goes off to GW, then there's nothing to discuss.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Plaxor on January 26, 2011, 08:15:37 PM
@Nate,

Nothing that I found while I was digging through the document. Maybe something on how impalers can be squadroned with fighters/bombers/abs?

Mimic engines and launching torps? I think that they should be able to be targeted if they launch torpedoes, as this is always a threatening action. Even if they don't hit another ship.

Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: horizon on January 26, 2011, 08:38:19 PM
Ray had new Impaler ideas iirc.


As an addition character ship. Perhaps seperate document like Yriel's Raiders (Flame of Asuryan)?

Mimic Engines for free on all vessels.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar rules changes?
Post by: Zelnik on January 27, 2011, 12:43:18 PM
They need a character ship like the flame, probably the personal vessel of Ahra.  The Dark Eldar fleet lacks a real linchpin to help keep it stable. 

In the Dark Eldar book, Lady Malys somehow managed to board an ork hulk, smash it's defenders and steal and STC right out of the hands of a warboss.  They must have SOME kind of special ship or tech to allow them to do this.