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Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Rules Questions => Topic started by: Meister.Petz on May 10, 2009, 12:00:34 PM

Title: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Meister.Petz on May 10, 2009, 12:00:34 PM
Today I fought a battle with my Skaven against Dark Elves.

There was one difficult situation for us:
A unit of DE spearmen charged a unit of rat swarms (flank) which stood in a brigade together with a warplightning cannon. The cannon made "stand and shoot" and did make casualties in the DE spearmen.

So now my question:
Can the DE spearmen unit get confused as the rules of taking casualties from a warp lightning cannon say?
If they can get confused, does the DE spearmen unit get the +1 bonus for charge in the open?
The rules of the warplightning cannon says that every unit, touching the unit which was shot at, have to rool a d6 for confusion. So when I choose "stand and shoot", do my ratties have to make this roll to (bec. in the end the DE spearmen touched my units as a result of the charge)?

Hope, I can find good answeres here (although I think we played it right in the end).
Greetings from Austria
Peter
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 10, 2009, 03:51:10 PM
Today I fought a battle with my Skaven against Dark Elves.

There was one difficult situation for us:
A unit of DE spearmen charged a unit of rat swarms (flank) which stood in a brigade together with a warplightning cannon. The cannon made "stand and shoot" and did make casualties in the DE spearmen.

So now my question:
Can the DE spearmen unit get confused as the rules of taking casualties from a warp lightning cannon say?
Is there ANYTHING in the WLC rules that say they can not shoot >> if not, then follow normal procedure
Quote
If they can get confused, does the DE spearmen unit get the +1 bonus for charge in the open?
IF the unit got confused then follow the normal rules for Confused Units, -1 att bonus in that case negated +1 att bonus from charging in open
Quote
The rules of the warplightning cannon says that every unit, touching the unit which was shot at, have to rool a d6 for confusion. So when I choose "stand and shoot", do my ratties have to make this roll to (bec. in the end the DE spearmen touched my units as a result of the charge)?
Shooting occurs at "any point during the charge", which is not pers over open sights at point blank range  8-)   
Personaly I would "prefer" to shoot at he start of their move (if I would have the distance), while they might still be in contact with more DE units  8)
Quote
Hope, I can find good answeres here (although I think we played it right in the end).
Greetings from Austria
Peter
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Meister.Petz on May 10, 2009, 07:54:15 PM
Ah great :)
Thanks for answering my questions and for giving the hint, when to shoot best :D
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Getlord on May 10, 2009, 09:03:58 PM
Just one more clarification. Did you finally come into contact with WLC?
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 10, 2009, 09:08:49 PM
Shooting occurs at "any point during the charge", which is not pers over open sights at point blank range  8-)   
Personaly I would "prefer" to shoot at he start of their move (if I would have the distance), while they might still be in contact with more DE units  8)

Shooting is worked out, when the charging units finishes its move, so you can only shoot when they come into base contact and not at the start of their move, cant you!?
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 11, 2009, 12:08:18 AM
Shooting occurs at "any point during the charge", which is not pers over open sights at point blank range  8-)   
Personaly I would "prefer" to shoot at he start of their move (if I would have the distance), while they might still be in contact with more DE units  8)

Shooting is worked out, when the charging units finishes its move, so you can only shoot when they come into base contact and not at the start of their move, cant you!?

Actualy it is worked out when the first STAND is moved into position (because THAT is when you know it IS a charge move  8) ), but nowhere it is defined to be at the moment of contact.

Some points to remember:

- shooting CAN take of a stand of the charging unit, which MIGHT result into a different configuration of your overall attack (by clearing up a "slot", eg allowing an additional unit to have LOS for a charge
- shooting is possible at ANY charger that DURING THE CHARGE MOVE, was (partly) in the field of fire (LOS zone) of the unit attacked
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Claus on May 11, 2009, 10:11:11 AM
Yep this nice Stand & Shoot rule leads sometimes also to impossible situation.

If you charge 2 units of bowmen (you contact the 2nd one at corner) and therefore get 6 Stand & Shoot shots where you encounter 3 wounds and losing 1 stand you are finally in a situation where that seems to be impossilbe.

You get shots from 2 units but you don´t touch anymore 2 units because 1 stand got´s killed ....etc.

Sometimes it´s really complex.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: wmchaos2000 on May 11, 2009, 02:41:03 PM
The second shooter helps the first to pin down the charger and thus the charger loses a stand and is down 3 in combat res before starting to swing. Perfectly sound.
I do not know if the second shooter is allowed to Pursue though? Meaning, is it part of the combat since it did stand&shoot or not?
Or maybe, you must move the remaining charging stands so they engage both shooter units. Correct?
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 11, 2009, 09:00:16 PM
As Claus points out, this becomes messy easy, depending on how people interpret "maximising frontage against an enemy", and on how strict they measure distances moved.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 12, 2009, 05:42:49 PM
Actualy it is worked out when the first STAND is moved into position (because THAT is when you know it IS a charge move  8) ), but nowhere it is defined to be at the moment of contact.

It says in the rulebook. ""Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished his move..."

Quote
shooting occurs at "any point during the charge", which is not pers over open sights at point blank range  8-)   

At any point during the charge you have to have a line of sight but shooting according to the rules takes place after the charging unit finished its move. Please correct me if I am wrong but thats what I read in the RB.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 12, 2009, 07:16:33 PM
You confuse rule vs procedure

Rule - units with a missile attack can shoot at chargers (under specific circumstances), possibily causing wounds and removing stands on attacking units
Procedure -
    roll command,
    move first stand,
    move additional stand (cf. the Movement distance, Charge and Extending Frontage rules)
    all stands from contacted unit(s) that are not engaged in HtH already get missile attack IF the attacking unit was in their LOS at any time during the move
    roll missle attacks, applicable save, remove stand where appropriate
IF any other unit can charge an enemy based on the same order, go back to "move first stand"

There is no "rule" that says you can only shoot at attackers when they are in contact with your stands, it is a practicality of the procedure to roll them at that time, and before moving the next unit, because in those cases where stands ARE taken casualty, this may influence the next unit moving.

Note that sometimes stands get to shoot at attackers that actualy end-up outside LOS, which could be interpreted as "the shooting takes place at any point where the shooting unit can acutaly SEE the attacker.

Skaven WLC rule says adjacent units may be confused it the target unit gets hit, but it also EXPICITLY states "Skaven units can be affected when adjacent to a WLC that misfires and hits itself".

Note that the "point blank" interpretation (shooting after the contact), would also imply that attacking units "adjacent" (which does include the attackers in contact with it as well) could be confused on a misfire. But that the Skaven rules EXPLICITLY states that that applies to Skaven units.
Just make sure you and your opponent interpret the rule the same way before the situation actualy occurs.


Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 12, 2009, 07:29:05 PM
You confuse rule vs procedure

Not really I just dont think its possible within the rules to confuse more than the attacking elf infantry unit with the WLC with stand and shoot by shooting at the start of their movement.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: jchaos79 on May 13, 2009, 09:16:38 PM
Ok!, really interesting this threat.

We were playing slighting different, makeing all the charges, and then resolving the reaction fire, then go to hand to hand combat.

But now we have a doubt, I am will try to explain with an example:

A unit (chaos marauders) charge  to another missle unit (empire crossbowmen) front to front.

The missle unit (crossbowmen) makes the reaction fire while the marauders are charging inflicting 3 hits, and one stand of marauders  is eliminated (not the central one). This makes a "gap" in the battle line.

We still being in the phase of orders of the chaos player. A unit of chaos knights have LOS to the crossbowmen because one stand has been remove. Then the chaos knights charge against the crossbowmen.

¿should the crossbowmen have another missle reaction (1 dice) to shoot agains the chaos knights?

(my impression: this mean that the stand of crossbowmen have shoot twice in the chaos player turn, is little wierd, but ... who knows, I am learning a lot with this forum).

waiting for your feedback,

cheers
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 13, 2009, 09:58:09 PM
The question and example are clear.

Resolve the shooting on a per (Attacking) unit base, as you concluded, placement of stands could allow other units to charge as well, with LOS and room to place against the Shooters.
(Remember to keep track of the inflicted wounds BTW, as they DO carry over into combat resolution !!)
When placing the NEXT unit that charges, only those STANDS of the shooters that are not in ANY kind of base-2-base (and thus HtH) contact, are allowed to shoot again. Which indeed means that a unit could conceivably shoot with 3 stands on 1st attacker, then with 2 on second and with one on 3th attacking unit.



Dicing with dragons...  a pratical application that is within the rules.

Quote

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?

Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 13, 2009, 10:50:05 PM
¿should the crossbowmen have another missle reaction (1 dice) to shoot agains the chaos knights?

Not in this example because all 3 crossbow stands are in contact with the chaos marauders.

As Lex said its very important to do s&s per every attack, because it could change the battle line.
For example A and B charge X, A charges and looses a stand in S&S, so B cannot attack the flanks anymore because there is room in the front now.

AAA BBB

XXX

So you would end up like that, instead of having B attacking the flank.

AABBB
XXX
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: wmchaos2000 on May 14, 2009, 11:13:18 AM
Lex, I just realised that you are doing a poll (correct?) out of the shooter+dragon example, so I removed my answer.  ;)

Should we apply the chance for the shots to kill charging stands? If so, which units are we discussing?
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2009, 12:19:23 PM
Dicing with dragons...  a pratical application that is within the rules.

Quote

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?


The POLL refers to the question above !!

No stands are removed after the first S&S reaction. Simple straigthforward application  B]
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 14, 2009, 12:49:54 PM
There is no "rule" that says you can only shoot at attackers when they are in contact with your stands, it is a practicality of the procedure to roll them at that time, and before moving the next unit, because in those cases where stands ARE taken casualty, this may influence the next unit moving.

Note that sometimes stands get to shoot at attackers that actualy end-up outside LOS, which could be interpreted as "the shooting takes place at any point where the shooting unit can acutaly SEE the attacker.

Sorry for being annoying :) but I dont think the rules give that much room for interpretation:

Quote
Stands capable of shooting (including artillery, appropriate monsters and some machines) and which are not already engaged in combat, can shoot at enemy units charging their own unit. Remember, a unit is ‘charged’ so long as it is contacted by a charging stand – it does not matter if the unit was not the original target of the charge. [...]

Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished its move.
Shooting stands must be able to draw a line of sight to the enemy unit at some point during the charge move whilst it is within their weapon range. This can be at any moment during the charge: either at the start of the move, once it is complete or at any point in between. [...]

Calculate the effect of shots and remove anywhole stand casualties straight away before moving any further units [...]

Shots are always calculated from the position of the chargers at the end of their move[...]
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: spiritusXmachina on May 14, 2009, 02:42:10 PM
Sounds quite clear to me too now.

So it may be ok to choose any point along the charge movement to shoot, but shots are worked out when the movement is finished. So at first the unit is placed at the Warp Lightning Cannon then all shooting hits take effect - then the charging unit tests for confusion then all touching units have to test for confusion too (if the charging unit got a wound). That also means that following chargers will not have to test because they do not touch yet.

Greetings,
Gerald
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: mspaetauf on May 14, 2009, 04:08:32 PM
the skaven would also have to test for confusion. It does not matter when the shooting takes place, it is worked out when the attackers have reached their final position (says so in the rules), so the skaven have to test, too.

About the example: dragon + unit can shoot all their shots at the attacking unit; if the attacking unit creates frontage with 2 stands, then 2 other stands can shoot back (depends on what stands are in contact, as the dragon has more attacks). Mind that corner contact does not count as contact in this case!

bg,
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Bel on May 14, 2009, 04:19:07 PM
the skaven would also have to test for confusion. It does not matter when the shooting takes place, it is worked out when the attackers have reached their final position (says so in the rules), so the skaven have to test, too.

About the example: dragon + unit can shoot all their shots at the attacking unit;
true.

Quote
if the attacking unit creates frontage with 2 stands, then 2 other stands can shoot back (depends on what stands are in contact, as the dragon has more attacks). Mind that corner contact does not count as contact in this case!
????
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2009, 04:31:04 PM
the skaven would also have to test for confusion. It does not matter when the shooting takes place, it is worked out when the attackers have reached their final position (says so in the rules), so the skaven have to test, too.
The only thing the RuleBOOK says (and that is in particular for Boltthrowers, as the WLC was not around when it was written):

Note that shots from bolt throwers can penetrate
enemy stands and affect other stands or units behind
the target
. Shots are always calculated from the
position of the chargers at the end of their move – so
penetration can be easily calculated from the final
position of the charging unit.

The underlined bit is the only part that actualy could be comsidered as constituting the reason for calculating effect for WLC on final positioning of chargers.

Quote

About the example: dragon + unit can shoot all their shots at the attacking unit; if the attacking unit creates frontage with 2 stands, then 2 other stands can shoot back (depends on what stands are in contact, as the dragon has more attacks).


OK, I dont think you actualy wrote what you are trying to tell, but did you Vote in the Poll ??   if so, then yes

Quote

Mind that corner contact does not count as contact in this case!


Uhhhh  in what way does it not count ??  stands in C2C contact are considered to be fighting and ar enot allowed to participate in S&S
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 14, 2009, 04:33:00 PM
Quote

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?


The first attackers gets 3 +3 dragon shots and the second charger gets 1 + 3 dragon shots, so I would say all in all 10 shots are fired in s&s.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2009, 04:37:27 PM
Quote

A unit of [shooters] is joined by a character on a dragon. The unit is charged from LOS by a unit of horseman that allign on one of the outside stands, effectivly creating frontage against 2 stands.
A second unit of horsemen then charges in and allignes adjacent to the first attackers.

How many Stand&Shoot attacks are fired on the attackers in total ?


The first attackers gets 3 +3 dragon shots and the second charger gets 1 + 3 dragon shots, so I would say all in all 10 shots are fired in s&s.

DANG !!   :-X    now you gave it away .......   ^^ that was what the poll was for   8)
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: mspaetauf on May 14, 2009, 05:03:11 PM

direct copy & paste from the GW rules update:  (get it from their website)
Quote
Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished its move.
Page 7, P28, 4th paragraph

so, that makes it obvious that the skaven have to test, IMO. Also i see no reason why it should be any different from e.g. bolt throwers.

about the corner-to-corner: sorry, my mistake, I got it the wrong way around.

forget what I said about the dragon example, it was confusing  :P

best regards,



Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2009, 07:32:09 PM

direct copy & paste from the GW rules update:  (get it from their website)
Quote
Shots are worked out as soon as the charging unit has finished its move.
Page 7, P28, 4th paragraph


Actualy that is not a rule, but a procedure statement   8). This is to avoid people having to stop moving because the attacked units says "stop there, that is the point where I will shoot at them...."

A better quote of the rules to "prove" this point is mentioned up-thread. IT is a couple of paragraphs lower, concerning the boltthrower.

General concensus is that the shots are worked out taking into consideration the final position of attackers (with the attacker having the option WHICH stand to remove should he take casualties). Specific for the WLC this implies that ANY adjacent unit to the target unit should test, if the target unit takes WOUNDS (not hits). Also note that should the WLC blow up itself, this goes against the attacking units too.

Skaven specific rules btw are ambivalent on this point !!

Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: spiritusXmachina on May 14, 2009, 08:38:01 PM
@Lex: As Guthwine just spoiled your puzzle I would plead you make a new one - maybe in a new post. I think it's a nice idea.

Greetings,
Gerald
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: mspaetauf on May 14, 2009, 08:45:08 PM
Actualy that is not a rule, but a procedure statement   8).

makes me curious - what is the basis for above statement?

Otherwise one could always take any rules-discussion to absurdity this way....

Well anyways - i think your quote above (the bolt thrower) very much resembles what I am trying to say here; actually i don't really see reason for discussion as the rules are quite clear in my opinion! :)

regards,
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: azrael71 on May 14, 2009, 10:07:54 PM
Got to agree with Gerald.
I have been scratching my head all afternoon over this one ;)
More WM brain teasers please.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Guthwine on May 14, 2009, 10:16:22 PM
Yeah sorry for spoiling the puzzle, didnt realize it was one.

I always get excited when I know something. :D :P But I think a WM "quiz" is a great idea!

@Topic: Gotta agree with mspaetauf. How do we distinguish rule from procedure?
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2009, 10:36:08 PM
Actualy that is not a rule, but a procedure statement   8).

makes me curious - what is the basis for above statement?


Let me try and explain; if you look at the Rulebook (actualy ANY rulebook, or workmanual etc)  there are 3 different kind of writing in there

- Rules
- Procedure
- Fluff

In general, more traditional games will have VERY clear Rules and Procedures, and hardly any fluff, or at least the fluff stays in its own sections and does not clutter the rules. Eg. look at Monopoly. Clear, sectionalized rules, which little complexity and thus no need for eleborate Procedure.

- Rule: when you hit the policeguy, go to prison
- Procedure: instead of following the normal track, which might cause you to cross start and get money cf. the normal rule, go direct to the boardspace marked prison
- Fluff: none, WHY you go there is left up to imagination

GW produced games tend to have VERY much overlap between Rule, Procedure and Fluff, which often leads to people reading "rules" that are never intended as such, or ignoring stuff as "being in the fluff".

- Rule: If you have missile weapons you can shoot at enemy in sight and in range, with the OBLIGATION to shoot at the closest enemy
- Procedure:
1) determine LOS for the unit shooting
2) measure distance to nearby units
3) roll dice to hit
etc
- Fluff: no sane man/elf/gobbo would ignore the guys with pointy bits comming closer and closer to shoot at the friggin big dragon further away.

Quote


actually i don't really see reason for discussion as the rules are quite clear in my opinion! :)


Well, one of the reasons that for the Playtest and Development I try to get people from many places, with all their own interpretation and playstyle together. Especialy people well versed in English, that need to translate the Rulebook to others in their community are prone to spot certain areas of possible misinterpretation. Travel to play, and you will be supprised by what YOU concive as "clear" may not be as clear as you think. Most players are limited to their own meta-gaming-scene, which will also "set" certain (pre)conceptions. Take it from one that traveled half the world to play his games of Warmaster.
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: Lex on May 14, 2009, 10:41:37 PM

@Topic: Gotta agree with mspaetauf. How do we distinguish rule from procedure?


Hmmmm  I agree that is not always easy. I always try and think of it like this:

Rules generaly define circumstances
Procedure tells me when, what and/or how

In itself it is an interesting excersize to look at (parts of ) the rulebook and try and make the distinction. And personaly I am of the opinion that would we want to do a WM-rules.V2, we would NEED to .
Title: Re: Question about stand and shoot
Post by: wmchaos2000 on May 15, 2009, 11:01:56 AM
The first attackers gets 3 +3 dragon shots and the second charger gets 1 + 3 dragon shots, so I would say all in all 10 shots are fired in s&s.

Joy-destroyer!  :)
Since you spoiled the poll, I vote that you get to come up with a new one.  ;)