August 22, 2017, 12:53:22 AM

Author Topic: [AL]Wood Elves  (Read 2145 times)

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Offline honestmistake

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2017, 02:58:42 PM »
Interesting. Wood Elf players say it's too weak and others it's overpowered. How come :-)

Probably because they are Squeakie lovin' gits ;)

Offline industrialtrousers

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2017, 05:45:28 PM »
Alright now. I'll own the git reference as I don't have a leg to stand on there but not sure I'm taking on the squeakie.

I'm Building a We army so by Xmas I'm hoping to have lured dry erase and or Mr Athens fantasy in for a game or two and have some meaningful feedback. You need something with punch or the opposition chariots/Knights etc just roll you.

Offline honestmistake

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2017, 08:44:48 PM »
All elf's are Squeaakies and all Squeakies must die!



*OK, some elf's are Skimbo's but they are also gits and should die  :o



**Please note: I may have been playing Orcs far too long 😝

Offline honestmistake

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2017, 08:49:46 PM »
As for your sensible comments re: "punch" that's what the wardancers do... The tree spirit/dryads are overkill and the knights/chariots cant get you in the woods anyway. Even unarmoured shooters are insanely hard to shift if they have support.


Offline Dark Omen

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2017, 03:56:53 PM »
Even the newly suggested list looks broken to me.

* Why are the standard elven Archers ported over with the same stats and no woodland penalty then given a a 10 point saving per unit?
* Why limit the normal Infantry to 3 per thousand and then throw in Unlimited Uber Spearmen... er "tree-Spirit/Dryads" for 75 points with immunity to terror, no command penalty in woods and a +1 attack! OK they do have a -1 command penalty from most heroes but it's a 10 command General so it's hardly an issue?
* Waywatchers are based on Empire Skirmishers... Good plan but why they seem cheap for the power of the shooting attack? Also, should the save not be 0/5+ to match their parent units?
* Wardancers... Glad to see their 'tank' killer ability gone but I'm still not keen on armoured flagellants in an Elven Army.
* An Unlimited number Hero mounts seems a little unnecessary.
*

#1 Wood Elf Archers have no armour save. High Elf archers have a 6+ save. A 6+ save is valued at around 10 pts in other armies so this is fair.

#2 Good point. I think the purpose of Elf unit maximums is to emphasise the fact that Elves are few in number in the lore. I agree that the Forest Spirits are cheap at 75 pts, but they are comparable to lesser deamons which are priced the same. The cheap cost is to emphasise their use over the Elves. This is to promote more aggressive game play and prevent "Forest camping" with units hidden in woods all game.

#3 Yes, Waywatchers are cheap at 30 pts for 2 armour piercing shooting attacks. And yes they should be -/5+ armour save. They are also insanely good value for increasing the scouting factor of the army (see below). But they only have 2 combat attacks. So maybe they should be 35 pts, but no more than that.

#4 Yes, I played several games with Wardancers and never once remembered that they have a save! I think bringing them in to line with other fanatic units by dropping the save and reducing cost to 70 pts is the way forward.

#5 Yes, unlimited mounts is bad. I'm sure this will be rectified to 1 per 1000 pts.


I played some more games with the new list and I still like it a lot. However one thing that came up was the scouting value for wood elf armies. It is insanely high, literally double what other armies can field.  This is due to the fact that almost all the wood elf units provide a scouting value. And Waywatchers provide 3 per unit! That is +3 scouting value for one stand of troops worth 30 pts. I think the Scouting system needs to be re evaluated for Wood Elves to correctly balance the value of units like Dryads and Waywatchers.

In game terms, this means that the Wood Elves will almost always win the Scouting roll and pick their table edge, so they can always pick a table edge with fewer woods than the minimum to get their free wood and increase the overall number of woods on the field.

The most recent game I Played was 2000 pts Empire vs Wood Elves (using proxy Romans as Wood Elves hee hee).

I took 1 General, 1 Treeman Ancient character, 1 Wizard. 4 Archers, 2 Eternal Guard, 2 Waywatchers, 4 Dryads, 2 Wardancers, 2 Wild Riders, 2 Glade Riders, 2 Hawk Riders, 1 Treeman monster.

Things I found to work well included; 

The Treeman character was really useful for tipping combats with his Terror and +3 attacks,  and for keeping the Forest Spirits moving.

I actually made use of Tree singing to move units in woods out of initiative range of the enemy.

Wardancers are still very strong on the charge and were able to shred a Steam Tank on dice alone even without their previous armour piercing rule.

Things I found worked less well included;

Wild Riders hit like a truck ( I removed 2 units of Knights for no losses in one charge) but then get overwhelmed by supporting troops that they invariably have to advance into. This is quite realistic but a bit of a liability in game terms. I guess you just have to make sure they kill their points before they die!

A canny opponent will always save their dispel scroll for the predicted Call of the Hunt spell to prevent losing their artillery.

Even Forest Spirits in forests are shredded by cannon! It is hard to protect your combat troops form artillery fire if the opponent knows how to set up guided shots (using troops to focus line of sight at juicy targets).

Archers often need to leave the cover of their woods to be able to bring targets in range, especially when the enemy has artillery. The Waywatchers and Glade Guard failed to have an impact on the game.

In the end the Empire won by breaking the Elves on Turn 5.
 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 08:43:50 PM by Dark Omen »

Offline Dark Omen

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2017, 04:02:02 PM »
The doom of the Wood Elfs (Romans)

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2017, 07:55:01 AM »
Many thanx for your contribution Dark Omen. Much appreciated.
I tried to incorporate some ideas presented here and from other sources that seemed reasonable.
It's obvious that some people still prefer to build their armies based on elves rather than tree spirits. Raising the max value by 1 for basic WE infantry and cavalry seems the way to help it while not abandoning the concept of limited elf choices altoghether.
I also followed the idea of cutting the Treeman hero 1 attack short and returning the forrest dragon mount option.
No limit on mounts was obvioulsy an omission.
The Waywatchers are 35 now. I guess the Wardancers are supposed to be way better fighters than flagellants so that's why they originally had the 6+ save. Does the save make them that strong? Let's watch this one.

on the Wildriders - this is exactly how they are supposed to work (they are basically chariots). Deadly yet fragile. This is aslo why I'm not quite sure whether they should be forced to charge on initiative, as with this rules it's oftent the opponent who decides which of his unit are they gonna to charge - and they are too precious to be easily wasted on units of opponents choice.

Here's the revised list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wos6WnnCUaJwG3zg9E4-tl5hEn1hwqSd7vXaaq1YlEc/edit#gid=0
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Offline industrialtrousers

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2017, 04:49:11 AM »
I seem to need permission to access this list?

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2017, 06:40:46 AM »
should be reset now
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Offline honestmistake

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2017, 06:43:16 PM »
#1 Wood Elf Archers have no armour save. High Elf archers have a 6+ save. A 6+ save is valued at around 10 pts in other armies so this is fair.

#2 Good point. I think the purpose of Elf unit maximums is to emphasise the fact that Elves are few in number in the lore. I agree that the Forest Spirits are cheap at 75 pts, but they are comparable to lesser deamons which are priced the same. The cheap cost is to emphasise their use over the Elves. This is to promote more aggressive game play and prevent "Forest camping" with units hidden in woods all game.

#3 Yes, Waywatchers are cheap at 30 pts for 2 armour piercing shooting attacks. And yes they should be -/5+ armour save. They are also insanely good value for increasing the scouting factor of the army (see below). But they only have 2 combat attacks. So maybe they should be 35 pts, but no more than that.

#4 Yes, I played several games with Wardancers and never once remembered that they have a save! I think bringing them in to line with other fanatic units by dropping the save and reducing cost to 70 pts is the way forward.

#5 Yes, unlimited mounts is bad. I'm sure this will be rectified to 1 per 1000 pts.


I played some more games with the new list and I still like it a lot. However one thing that came up was the scouting value for wood elf armies. It is insanely high, literally double what other armies can field.  This is due to the fact that almost all the wood elf units provide a scouting value. And Waywatchers provide 3 per unit! That is +3 scouting value for one stand of troops worth 30 pts. I think the Scouting system needs to be re evaluated for Wood Elves to correctly balance the value of units like Dryads and Waywatchers.

In game terms, this means that the Wood Elves will almost always win the Scouting roll and pick their table edge, so they can always pick a table edge with fewer woods than the minimum to get their free wood and increase the overall number of woods on the field.

The most recent game I Played was 2000 pts Empire vs Wood Elves (using proxy Romans as Wood Elves hee hee).

I took 1 General, 1 Treeman Ancient character, 1 Wizard. 4 Archers, 2 Eternal Guard, 2 Waywatchers, 4 Dryads, 2 Wardancers, 2 Wild Riders, 2 Glade Riders, 2 Hawk Riders, 1 Treeman monster.

Things I found to work well included; 

The Treeman character was really useful for tipping combats with his Terror and +3 attacks,  and for keeping the Forest Spirits moving.

I actually made use of Tree singing to move units in woods out of initiative range of the enemy.

Wardancers are still very strong on the charge and were able to shred a Steam Tank on dice alone even without their previous armour piercing rule.

Things I found worked less well included;

Wild Riders hit like a truck ( I removed 2 units of Knights for no losses in one charge) but then get overwhelmed by supporting troops that they invariably have to advance into. This is quite realistic but a bit of a liability in game terms. I guess you just have to make sure they kill their points before they die!

A canny opponent will always save their dispel scroll for the predicted Call of the Hunt spell to prevent losing their artillery.

Even Forest Spirits in forests are shredded by cannon! It is hard to protect your combat troops form artillery fire if the opponent knows how to set up guided shots (using troops to focus line of sight at juicy targets).

Archers often need to leave the cover of their woods to be able to bring targets in range, especially when the enemy has artillery. The Waywatchers and Glade Guard failed to have an impact on the game.

In the end the Empire won by breaking the Elves on Turn 5.

#1 Good point, I did notice that after posting but I would still find it more balanced to leave the cost (and save) alone. Actually, given the lack of command penalty in woods I would suggest a 5 point increase would be in order.

#2 The Forest Spirits may have the same stat line as the daemon horde but it is not subject to instability which renders it a poor comparisson. I personally can see no place in the army at all for this unit but will come back to that.

#4 dropping the save and cost seems like a good plan... but only if they get the rest of the stat line of the Dark Elf Witch Elves that they are clearly comparable too.

#5 to be fair, in an army with only 2 characters who can ride a mount (+general) the limit is a bit moot. However, limiting the Unicorns to just one per army (not per 1000 points would put it on par with other armies!)


A question of Need & Balance: Is this army really needed and is it really balanced when compared with others? To me the answer is a double NO!

First, do we actually need a third flavour of Elves? I mean, honestly, If you want to play Wood Elf that much just play a reskinned Dark Elf army... everything proxies really well. OK subordinate execution seems a bit off flavour :) but more or less everything works well. There's improved archers & deadly but grumpy (if now too heavily armoured) cavalry. There is a big monster that could easily be re-purposed as a near unstoppable rock throwing Ent... Even the Bolt Thrower could be re-imagined as slow moving 'uber archers' and I can't see any justification for a Wood Elf army to be mainly comrised of non-elves so it really doesn't matter that they aren't in the list.

Second, Even with the most recent tweaks I just don't see this as balanced compared to most armies. Glade Guard losing a point 6 Save to save 10 points is not balance... it will rarely matter as they may never leaving the woods anyway. Wardancers are equal to the heaviest hitting Infantry in any Army but without the Suicidal tendencies that temper other fanatic units usefulness making them significantly better than the stat line might suggest. Waywatchers... actually, I'm fine with those as an thematic alternative to artillery :/ Dryads just seem to be put in as a heavy infanty alternative to heavy cavalry? If they must stay in the army they should probably cost at least 15 or 20 points more than the Daemon Horde to reflect their woodland bonus and lack of instability. They should also be strictly limited to no more than 2 Units per 1000 points (and that's probably 1 too many!) Glade Riders... all the joy of Elven Reavers but now with their +1 to hit back but costed as the nerfed, tournament version??? Wild Riders are now just Fearless Elven Chariots without the charge bonus... Not exactly Over-Powered (or cheap!) but I can't say I can understand the need? Warhawks are shooting flyers with all round vision... a very rare combo and Unique in a high command army. I like the Treeman monster... it's a nice balance and very unusual! Treeman Hero on the otherhand should probably be limited to 1 per Army though this would be less of an issue if the Dryad numbers were squashed as I suggest. Unicorn should (as I mentioned earlier) be limited to 1 per Army and I am really not sure there is balance in having a terror causing hero and mount in the army?

So... still pretty negative from me (sorry) and not just because I don't like Elves. Overall the theme is clear and so is the intent but I just don't think the 2 work well together for Warmaster, it's not a game designed for Guerilla Armies and trying to 'force' this one out in the open with unlimited amounts of Heavy Infantry ignores the fact that they will be supported by the best shooters in the Game, Shooters who will quickly be able to dominate terrain due to the exceptionally high command :(

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2017, 09:35:18 PM »
Well I personaly would like to see Witch Hunter Army out of the comming compendium, for they are more of someone's wild dream rather than part of the Warhammer lore. However I was outvoted and persuaded by majority that since they have been in once, they cannot fall out now as too many people have the armies and count on playing them. Though I might very well agree with you on whether WE are needed to be around and that there was a good reason why they were not planned as official army, they are around now, people have the armies and want to play them. So we have to deal with it. I'm grateful for all the contributions and I take them seriously however it is much more helpful if it's based on actual playtesting experience rather than theoryhammering.
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Offline honestmistake

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2017, 11:47:12 PM »
...Though I might very well agree with you on whether WE are needed to be around and that there was a good reason why they were not planned as official army, they are around now, people have the armies and want to play them.

While I do take your point about people wanting to play them I do wonder how big the actual demand is? Whatever,  I do think making it clear that they were never an official army list (and never intended to be!) is a very important point to make. At the very least I would urge that such experimental & fan made army lists be kept seperate from the more canon lists (as, indeed, they are in the "Trial Armies" publication) and remember that just because it was suggested for playtesting does not mean it deserves to be included.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I agree with you about the Witch Hunters being a very iffy inclusion... The group I regularly play with disallow pretty much everything after the Tournament Armies with the exception of Chaos Dwarf & Norse for serious games! We have trialed almost all of them at least once over the years so it's not entirely 'theoryhammering' but frankly we haven't found much (any) merit in any of them apart from the 2 mentioned .


One last thing... please tell me that the 'fan' armies aren't under serious consideration? Inclusion of the "Dwarf Engineering Guild Army" would be a very sad day for Warmaster :(

Offline Lex

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2017, 11:51:28 AM »
It would be nice for people to reflect that some serious serious time and effort of other people went into things like the Trail Armies publication. I must say that some of the postings above seriously make me consider selling off my Warmaster armies, leaving this place and going to "greener pastures"

Offline Clawlessdragon

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2017, 01:41:33 PM »
Thanks for all your hard work Aldrich. I have not fully digested the new list yet but will certainly try it next time I play. I appreciate letting us into the thought process behind the changes and including appropriate feedback that pushes the list forward to be playable and fair ,( as fair a elves can be anyway, ) and these changes are not just decided behind the closed doors of the committee, before the community sees them.
I've only picked up the the wardancers are a unit, for some reason I thought they would be the "add on" unit as they were so few in numbers, and the way watchers would be the elite killer unit. However this works well, as they align well with witch elves and slayers.

 I like the idea of the dryads and treeman hero, but have no idea how I would proxy them in the army.

 Noticed the woods have been reduced to max of 2 and max size of 16cm , which is a shame as it lessens the effectiveness of a couple of their spells, but totally understand why it's needed. Are the spells to be looked at? The only thing that bugs me is the tree singing spell, I can never see that being used, move up to 6 cm and stop if you touch any terrain. It can never move far enough to hav an impact on a 5 to 7 turn game.
 

Offline Aldhick

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Re: [AL]Wood Elves
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2017, 02:10:02 PM »
Noticed the woods have been reduced to max of 2 and max size of 16cm , which is a shame as it lessens the effectiveness of a couple of their spells, but totally understand why it's needed. Are the spells to be looked at? The only thing that bugs me is the tree singing spell, I can never see that being used, move up to 6 cm and stop if you touch any terrain. It can never move far enough to hav an impact on a 5 to 7 turn game.
As stated before I see the free woods part as most important rule yet, unlike point costs and stats, very hard to grasp. It slouhld be balanced to make all paries satisfied - WE to have their natural combat style, opponent not being frustrated by having no chance to catch their elf and tournament organisers by not messing with the preset terrain and scenarios too much.
On this one I would be much grateful for your feedback, experince and ideas.
As pointed by Podcast guys, the original extra wood dimensions are too large and vulnerable to abuse when pushed to the edge. A cicle with 18cm in diametre seems still pretty large.

About the spells - yes, it's pretty much the Tree singing it shloud be focused on. It's effect is in most cases too minor and the possible charge description is too vague. There was an idea to let it move 2D3  (rather than D6) to increase the distance moved in average.

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