December 16, 2017, 04:58:58 PM

Author Topic: Army lists amendments  (Read 2555 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aldhick

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 418
  • The End is nigh
    • Loc: Czech Republic
Army lists amendments
« on: December 16, 2016, 01:21:22 PM »
We see WMR as an ideal opportunity to fix some long known issues in army lists, such as Steam Tank for example. We would like to encourage players to participate on this and to help us in finding general consensus (and I'm aware that achieving this might not be always possible). Any experience with the particular issues are welcome. However, it should  be clearly stated, that this is not ment to be a chance to everyone's wild dreams to come true. The point is just to fix what is not working well in existing armylists.



v0.1 https://warmaster-cz.blogspot.cz/2017/07/warmaster-revolution-armies-v01.html
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:28:45 AM by Aldhick »
WM - Toomb Kings
My Mordheim guys (and gals)
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t2734-aldhick-s-gangs

Offline andys

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 456
    • Loc: UK
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 12:02:52 PM »
The Chaos Dwarf list:

I'd question the limited number of slave units permitted. Most Chaos Dwarf background talks about them using large numbers of slaves in their armies. Increase the number of slave units permitted?

Offline Aldhick

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 418
  • The End is nigh
    • Loc: Czech Republic
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 11:29:23 AM »
The Chaos Dwarf list:

I'd question the limited number of slave units permitted. Most Chaos Dwarf background talks about them using large numbers of slaves in their armies. Increase the number of slave units permitted?
Any particular suggestions?
WM - Toomb Kings
My Mordheim guys (and gals)
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t2734-aldhick-s-gangs

Offline andys

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 456
    • Loc: UK
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 08:00:57 AM »
Without having play-tested it, I'd suggest:

1) More Orc slave units (4 max/1000) and/or
2) Goblin/Human slaves (6 or 8 max/1000) 2 attacks, 3 hits, 0 armour, 20 points

With a large number of slaves in the army perhaps, like Bretonnian peasants, they don't count towards the break point either, otherwise the break point would be huge! But they ALL have to die, like Dwarf Troll Slayers, otherwise the enemy gets the victory points?

Models for human slaves could be Bret peasants or Pendraken Peasants (code ELM14)?

Edit, maybe human slaves can be brigaded with Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarves, with the humans always at the front of the formation. If they get driven back with Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarves in formation behind them, they are destroyed (by the HGs/CDs!) instead of being driven back.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 12:09:19 PM by andys »

Offline greenskinchief

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • Loc: Saffron Walden
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 11:07:02 AM »
goblin changes,
heroes should be allowed to ride wyverns,
doom diver units should have 2 wounds per stand,
these bring the list into line with other lists and to my mind are amust have,
also the command structure is very weak, so a variant I have trialled is allowing a commander who starts a turn joined to a unit can move with the unit. This represents goblins desire to group together for strength of numbers, in game terms it makes commanders more vulnerable but does give a better chance of multiple commands, in practice it seems to work in the early stages of the game but to save commanders getting killed is rarely used later on.
hope these are of interest

Offline Aldhick

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 418
  • The End is nigh
    • Loc: Czech Republic
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2016, 08:38:17 AM »
Without having play-tested it, I'd suggest:

1) More Orc slave units (4 max/1000) and/or
2) Goblin/Human slaves (6 or 8 max/1000) 2 attacks, 3 hits, 0 armour, 20 points

With a large number of slaves in the army perhaps, like Bretonnian peasants, they don't count towards the break point either, otherwise the break point would be huge! But they ALL have to die, like Dwarf Troll Slayers, otherwise the enemy gets the victory points?

Models for human slaves could be Bret peasants or Pendraken Peasants (code ELM14)?

Edit, maybe human slaves can be brigaded with Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarves, with the humans always at the front of the formation. If they get driven back with Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarves in formation behind them, they are destroyed (by the HGs/CDs!) instead of being driven back.

Andys, thanx for your suggestion. We can discuss the min/max of orc slaves. As we don't have any Chaos dwarfs in our community, I'd need more opinions from CD players. Regarding the human slaves, as I have already stated, we don't want to go the "wish listing" way. There are too many units in Warhammer armybooks people would love to see in WM lists, that this might go out of control pretty sooon...

goblin changes,
heroes should be allowed to ride wyverns,
doom diver units should have 2 wounds per stand,
these bring the list into line with other lists and to my mind are amust have,
also the command structure is very weak, so a variant I have trialled is allowing a commander who starts a turn joined to a unit can move with the unit. This represents goblins desire to group together for strength of numbers, in game terms it makes commanders more vulnerable but does give a better chance of multiple commands, in practice it seems to work in the early stages of the game but to save commanders getting killed is rarely used later on.
hope these are of interest

Those armylist changes seem reasonable to me. There has been discussion on rock lobbers touching the doom diver issue as well. afaik there are no two-stand artillery units with 3 hits each. So this is totally ok with me.
I also don't see any particular reason why heroes should not be able to ride wyvern - but maybe someone will remind us of one. Hero on fighting monster is "basic tool" in generic WM armies with this option.

However not sure about the character movement. Too out of standard WM principles. Furthermore low command armies do better under WMR optional command rules.
WM - Toomb Kings
My Mordheim guys (and gals)
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t2734-aldhick-s-gangs

Offline Alexander

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • Loc: Netherlands
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2016, 11:18:39 AM »
Without having play-tested it, I'd suggest:

1) More Orc slave units (4 max/1000) and/or
2) Goblin/Human slaves (6 or 8 max/1000) 2 attacks, 3 hits, 0 armour, 20 points

With a large number of slaves in the army perhaps, like Bretonnian peasants, they don't count towards the break point either, otherwise the break point would be huge! But they ALL have to die, like Dwarf Troll Slayers, otherwise the enemy gets the victory points?

Models for human slaves could be Bret peasants or Pendraken Peasants (code ELM14)?

Edit, maybe human slaves can be brigaded with Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarves, with the humans always at the front of the formation. If they get driven back with Hobgoblins or Chaos Dwarves in formation behind them, they are destroyed (by the HGs/CDs!) instead of being driven back.

What about blunderbus units? Does anyone take them? They seem overpriced what you get in comparison to say dwarf thunderers? One shot at 15cm Per stand inline formation (or 1 shot per unit in the fire corridoor with the special rule) just seems overpriced at 90pts compared to thunderers with 30cm and -1 save? Or does the shoot in collum rule realy offset this and make it worthwhile? (Ammount of shots per stand in collum per enemy unit in 4cm wide 15cm lenth area) It seems so limited for the 90points.

One rule of say 2 shots per stand at 15cm  seems more easy and in line with the fluff and keeping it simpel. (Hail of schrapnel at close range).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 11:35:56 AM by Alexander »

Offline empireaddict

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 431
    • Loc: UK East Midlands
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2016, 06:22:40 PM »
Had a spare moment between Xmas and New Year, so here are my thoughts:

Steam Tank.  Agree with suggested solution.  Brings it in line with Kislev War Wagons in that crew do not abandon it if they lose a round of combat.

Helblaster.  Agree with suggested solution.  Same points as Flame Cannon but not as good in point defence.

Bone Thrower. I have only played a few games with Undead and so will not offer an opinion.

Kislev War Wagon.  Agree that it ought to move forwards.  I suggest following phrase:  'Draw an imaginary line across the front of the horse stand and all moves that end forward of this line are at full-pace; if behind they are at half-pace.'  This rule also represents the difficulty of changing direction with heavy wagons!

Dwarf Gyrocopter. Disagree with all-round vision for this unit.  It is heavy and mechanical in comparison to other flyers which can shoot all-round.  Therefore has to be used and positioned carefully; I have no problem with that requirement.

Ogre Kingdoms.  I have made observations elsewhere on the forum on the basis of many games with or against Ogres.  I would support some tweaking of the list in order to give the Ogre player more realistic options to choose from.

Chaos Dwarf Orc Slaves.  I have played about a dozen games with CDs.  I have never used more that 3 Orc Slaves in a 2,000 point army.  They are OK for pushing up an otherwise low break, but they are very vulnerable because they lack armour.  But changing to, say, a max of 4 per 1,000 seems in keeping with the fluff.  I would not support goblin/human slaves as a fresh entry because the list already has plenty of choices and you would be duplicating a similar type to the Orc slaves.  I would also stay away from trying to change the CD break point rules for slaves.  There are lots of other non-Bretonnian armies that have low-quality, throwaway units and you would set a precedent for adjusting them as well.

Goblins. Having played greenskinchief's Orcs and/or Goblins many times, I trust his judgement on these matters!
“I cannot believe you when you say [your friend] has identical plastic boxes for his armies, all color coded [...] Don’t you think that is being little obsessive?”
“Yes, but not enough to scare us wargamers.”
© Larry Leadhead (2004)

Offline Alexander

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • Loc: Netherlands
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2016, 09:57:46 AM »
@Empireaddict Did you use blunderbuss units in your CD army? What's your opinion on the blunderbuss rules?

Offline honestmistake

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • Tentacles make everything better!
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2017, 03:50:32 AM »
I've used Blunderbuss units a few times with mixed results. Get them in the right place against the right army and they are devastating. I've seen a block of 4 units in column march up in front of a densely packed Undead army and the end result is very messy (placed right a single unit can inflict 24 attacks!) Conversely, against smaller armies with tough/expensive troops who are not in dense formations they fare far less well.
Overall I found they work best paired up with the orc slaves... roll up to the front of a brigade send some orcs into the fray then let rip on everything (orcs included) and watch the support melt away (works especially well if you get a volcanic erruption off... Bull Centaurs to the brigades flank probably counts as excessive though  :o)

Offline Aldhick

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 418
  • The End is nigh
    • Loc: Czech Republic
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2017, 07:53:16 AM »
I personaly don't have any experience with blunderbusses, but I remember, that the concept of shooting in column hit my eye as kind of weird... However if it should be one of two core CD units and it's effective only against some types of armies, I'd say something is wrong. I'll open dedicated thread to discuss it further.
WM - Toomb Kings
My Mordheim guys (and gals)
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t2734-aldhick-s-gangs

Offline mlkr

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 380
    • Loc: Sweden
Army lists amendments
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2017, 08:03:02 PM »
Putting this here. Have been reading and thinking about suggested changes, tweaks and such. I am very positive to WMR and do believe certain units and armies need tweaks and some work for added balance and fun. My question: Is there consensus on or at least a basic pointer to how we should go about fixing what is not working well in existing armylists and the main ruleset?

For me an important thing is to see a minimum amount of special rules added. I think one of the best parts about Warmaster is the streamlined rules. Its my hope we can keep it as simple and straightforward as possible.

Regarding balance - how do we want to go about that? Should we balance UNITS or ARMIES against each other? What I mean is - should every 3/3 6+ unit cost the same regardless of army its in or should some armies have cheaper/more expensive ones because of internal armybalance and how do we then achieve external balance between armies?


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk
//Swedish BB & WM-player.

Offline Aldhick

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 418
  • The End is nigh
    • Loc: Czech Republic
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2017, 11:24:17 PM »
The current direction is to make as few changes as possible and to decrease the amount of special rules rather than make new ones.

After many games I can say that the change in combat system didn't touch the internal balance within the lists. It only made infantry stronger and heavy cavalry sweeping charges less powerful - something that was sought for by many players.

Therefore we are mostly focusing on issues within armylists that were there even under "vanilla". If you are in touch with Aquahog, ask him about details - he is in the Committee.
WM - Toomb Kings
My Mordheim guys (and gals)
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t2734-aldhick-s-gangs

Offline Aquahog

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 384
Re: Army lists amendments
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2017, 11:54:33 PM »
PM'd you mlkr on FB.

Offline mlkr

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 380
    • Loc: Sweden
Army lists amendments
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2017, 08:40:22 PM »
Talked a little with Aquahog and with Aldhick's input above on focus I feel even more positive ^_^
It's my hope to get some good games in WMR with start in feb so I may even be able to contribute a little. Thank you both for clarifications :)


Skickat från min iPad med Tapatalk
//Swedish BB & WM-player.