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Author Topic: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline Bozeman

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Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« on: June 28, 2016, 04:29:08 AM »
Had some arguments on facebook about mimic engines.  Hope you guys can stomach more of my incessant rules lawyering.

A Dark Eldar player equips their entire fleet with Mimic Engines when facing an Imperial player.  They go first.  Before the game, they move, and then move again during their turn, ending their movement just outside 30cm from any enemy ships.  During the Imperial turn, they Imperial ships do not encounter any Dark Eldar Ordnance.  The Imperials move up and now want to fire the following things:

-Batteries: Right out.

-Lances: Right out.

-Attack with Bombers and/or Assault Boats: Right out.

-Fire Torpedoes: This is where I differ from the dude.  First, a ship fires torpedoes simply by placing the wave to be moved later in the Ordnance Phase.  There is no specific target.  Conceivably, you could even do this to fire on friendly ships.  I think firing torpedoes at a Mimic Engine Dark Eldar ship would be acceptable.  However, the other dude points out that you cannot fire torpedoes at friendly hulks (thanks to the 2010 FAQ).  He says it would not be acceptable.

-Ram: Because you have to make a special Leadership test to target the enemy ship with the Ram, I'd say this counts as an attack and would not be acceptable.

-Fire Nova Cannon: Nova Cannons are simply placed and scattered.  Just as with Torpedoes, you could even use Nova Cannons to fire on friendly ships.  However, the act of placing templates involves making a choice to place the template over a possible target.  In my opinion, Nova Cannons would be OK.  However, you could make a strong argument that placing it over an enemy ship would count as "targeting" it, and you would have to place the template over empty space and hope for a good scatter.

-Teleport Attacks and Boarding: Right out.

Offline horizon

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Re: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 05:43:08 AM »
Yeah, torpedoes have that rule glitch.

Eldar Hemlock goes on Lock-On (thus no turning), moves in movement phase, shoots in shooting phase.
But at the same time a Nightshade positions itself to shoot torpedo at Hemlock.
In ordnance phase torpedo hits Hemlock, Hemlocks braces for impact.
Hemlock is no longer on Lock On and may make a turn in the ordnance phase.

As the rules say you may shoot the torpedoes at will in any direction. However... is this in character? Why would an Imperial vessel shoot precious torpedoes (in the Rogue Trader RPG they only have xx amount of torpedoes available) at things they don't see?

So, yeah, ruleswise it is allowed, but it is not the "cool" thing to do.

Offline harec

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Re: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 07:50:07 AM »
Let's think this on an immersing point.

You are an imperial fleet and you have another imperial fleet, scoring to your scanners aproaching at very high speed not answering any astropatic or sublight message.

I think the imperial fleet shall not fire by any chance, but, it should be allowed to threaten the not responding fleet.

From my point of view we should clarify this rule. I would not allow to do the torpedo+nova glitch. But I would allow them to be fire as long as they are not targeting the eldar ships directly, witch means torpedoes can't target the ship if they can shotgun the DE ship and the nova gun can't  place the template in contact with any friendly ship.

I agree with the ramming issue.

About batteries and lances maybe I would allow a friendly fire rule, to represent the defending fleet threating the attacking ship. I don't know, like placing blast markers in front of the ships.

In the case of ordnance I think that if an ordnance marker hit a mimic engine ship maybe the DE ship should be revealed, after all they will be able to actually have a visual of it. :o
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Offline Lotus

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Re: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 11:37:48 AM »
I think the dark eldar are using the chameleon generators to look like a fleet they have encountered/destroyed prior to the battle. So, the enemy fleet is expecting an allied fleet (or some allied ships).

Otherwise, the most admirals could not be tricked by these generators - because the knowledge that it is somehow possible to mimic another ship is known to most factions i think (it's a piece of equipment every dark eldar vessel can use, and the mechanicus is experimenting with a similar technology too).

But thats my interpretation.


back to the rule-topic:

If your torpedoes (or nova cannon) are hitting an enemy ship, this would be an attack, wich leaves us with the situation: RAW, it is allowed to launch the torpedoes (and it is allowed to fire the nova cannon as long as you dont place the template on an enemy ship (you could target asteroids or something like that...)), but RAW your torpedoes can't attack/hit the enemy ship, while at the same time they have to attack their target because they have to by the rules.

So, the torpedo attack is not legal, the RAW way to solve thise would be:

yes, you can launch them, but you have to discard the marker without effect if it hits a ship (with active chameleon-rules), because there is no legal way for resolving this situation; the marker can't hit anything, it can't continue on its way, it can't stop, so its basically an illegal game piece at this moment.


But, if you define the launching of torpedoes as an attack (because it is a weapon system wich gets activated in the the same phase as every other weapon system), you could still launch them, but not if they would hit anything this turn or later if your oppotenent doesn't move his ships (you could fire the torpedoes between two ships).

This could be interpreted as "warning shot" fluffwise.



Another interpretation:

The torpedo rules are "core rules", while the faction specific rules are modifications to the core rules (for example: you don't have to question if dark eldar weapon battery uses core book rules or eldar weapon battery rules, they are a modification of the core book rules), so:   
faction rules/modificated core rule > core rule.
This way, the rules of the chameleon generator have to be followed, even if core book rules are saying something else (this already happens; core rules say "its an enemy ship, you can do stuff with it", but faction rules say "ignore the core rules, you can't attack this ship while this rule is in effect"). So, you could also asume that you have to ignore torpedo rules if they would break chameleon generator rules.

Wich would lead us to: Torpedoes could be launched, but they would not roll to hit the ship because the chameleon rules prevent that part, and then they would continue their way (because the "comes in contact with another ship" part would never occur).


Conclusion: Just dont do it. :)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 11:48:21 AM by Lotus »

Offline Seahawk

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Re: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 03:31:48 AM »
Launching fighters/bombers/assault boats/torpedoes is absolutely allowed on the first turn; they have no targets, so are not attacking unless they hit a DE ship's base, at which point they are.

When playing against DE, I always fill the air with fighters on CAP for the first turn. Totes legal and fluffy.

Offline Bozeman

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Re: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2016, 02:59:21 AM »
Eldar Hemlock goes on Lock-On (thus no turning), moves in movement phase, shoots in shooting phase.
But at the same time a Nightshade positions itself to shoot torpedo at Hemlock.
In ordnance phase torpedo hits Hemlock, Hemlocks braces for impact.
Hemlock is no longer on Lock On and may make a turn in the ordnance phase.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.  That is sneaky.

Offline blekinge

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Re: Dark Eldar Mimic Engines - What's Acceptable?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2017, 03:07:11 PM »
Launching fighters, bombers, assault boats seems fair. Torpedoes not so much.

The way I envisage the situation, you encounter a friendly fleet moving rapidly towards you, possible fleeing some larger foe. Launching guided ordnance seems like a prudent action, to either inspect the friendly fleet or to have it ready for the foe coming behind them. Fighters on CAP seems like the most sensible and reasonable thing to do in such a circumstance.

Launching torpedoes against friendly vessels, that are retreating might be RAW, but it seems to break the simulation. Boarding torpedoes I could possible accept, as they can be redirected against other targets or returned to the launching ship.

If you feel that shooting friendly ships, hulks, and empty space is a legal and fluffy use of the infinite and cheap torpedoes aboard imperial ships, then there is no problem. But on that we disagree.

Launching fighters/bombers/assault boats/torpedoes is absolutely allowed on the first turn; they have no targets, so are not attacking unless they hit a DE ship's base, at which point they are.

When playing against DE, I always fill the air with fighters on CAP for the first turn. Totes legal and fluffy.